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  #11  
Old 12-21-2005, 03:05 AM
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Default Re: Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

If this isn't a rebuy 1st level isn't this a horrific call preflop? Is it not smart to use the Gap Concept early in tournaments?
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  #12  
Old 12-21-2005, 03:12 AM
ansky451 ansky451 is offline
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Default Re: Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

FGators,

You read MLGs post. There are rules, but there really aren't. With 100 bbs and position, my cards aren't of all that much importance here. You are grossly misunderstanding the gap concept. I sometimes call AA here, I sometimes call with Q5s here. Deep stacked poker is mostly played on the flop, not preflop gators. You need to open your understanding of NL hold'em. What is the big difference between calling here with AJs, T9s, 22, 99? There isn't much.

This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.
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  #13  
Old 12-21-2005, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

Preflop: Calling can be good here depending on how badly your opponents are playing and how the table is playing in general. Generally I would call here if the table is loose/passive preflop. If SB has been playing reasonably (I assume he is as you posted no read) his range here is probably low-mid pairs, Big aces, and suited connectors.

Flop: Pretty obvious raise when the action first gets to you (hand is strong relative to opponents ranges, but is still very vulnerable). You picked a good amount, prices opponents out but still isnt too much to be called
Now the SB checkraises. This can mean couple things: 1)Big pair/two pair/set- SB feels his hand is strong, but vulnerable if you are bluffing with the Ad. I think you will see a hand like this often in this situation.The opponent feared getting no action from worse hands if he bet out, so he decided to checkraise initially to get value and protect his hand.
2) Flush (non Ace high) - A flush would checkraise for the same reasons two pair/set/big pair would (protect hand/still get value). A flush seems somewhat likely here as there are various suited connectors that may have called preflop and flopped the flush. Also, even though its not that likely, the villain may have a flush lower than yours (34s).

Conclusion:Based on the villains most likely holdings, you must call in this situation. You are getting over 3-1 when you are beating a good percentage of his hand range. Also, you very likely have two outs when you are behind.
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  #14  
Old 12-21-2005, 06:23 AM
2005 2005 is offline
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Location: Chicago
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Default Re: Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The first rule of MTTF is there are no rules?"

"This isn't NL, this is bowling, there are rules."


FWIW, this hand is pretty boring. You have like a million chips or something.
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  #15  
Old 12-21-2005, 09:09 AM
ansky451 ansky451 is offline
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Default Re: Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

Meh. My bad.

Your avatar broke.
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  #16  
Old 12-21-2005, 09:23 AM
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Default Re: Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

I like and hate this play at the same time, I'm so confused. I have made this play before, usually with connectors though, such as my now not so famous 4xbb raise from MP with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], wouldnt you know it, I hit quad 2s on the turn. Poor guy never saw it coming. Obviously in your hand, only that concerns me is OP has A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but you got to bet it, odds are you are the only one to flop the flush.
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  #17  
Old 12-21-2005, 09:34 AM
Jdanz Jdanz is offline
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Default Re: Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

do you call and push or just push?
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  #18  
Old 12-21-2005, 09:38 AM
Sam T. Sam T. is offline
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Location: St Louis, MO
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Default Re: Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

[ QUOTE ]
If this isn't a rebuy 1st level isn't this a horrific call preflop? Is it not smart to use the Gap Concept early in tournaments?

[/ QUOTE ]

The key here is stack-size. If Hero (or villain for that matter) had 10-15BB, yes the call would be horrible becuase the odds of Hero catching a nice flop are slim, and with a small stack your ability to out maneuver your opponent is very limited. With 6540654680650 BBs, Hero can call here without affecting his stack, and see what the flop brings. If it's AKQ of clubs, and there is action, he folds and goes on his merry way, having lost very little.

The final (though related) piece is implied odds. With stacks this deep, Hero can take down a huge pot if he hits, so having a look at the flop with this kind of hand is doable.
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  #19  
Old 12-21-2005, 11:09 AM
Brad F. Brad F. is offline
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Default Re: Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

Ansky,

Your problem here is that you didn't hit your two-outer. It's all good.

You need specific reads to lay this down, and early in a tourney you don't have that. Yes, sometimes being a LAG can get us in trouble, but more often than not you'll see an overpair with a diamond or a naked ace here.

Brad
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  #20  
Old 12-21-2005, 11:51 AM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Posts: 27
Default Re: Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

[ QUOTE ]
FGators,

You read MLGs post. There are rules, but there really aren't. With 100 bbs and position, my cards aren't of all that much importance here. You are grossly misunderstanding the gap concept. I sometimes call AA here, I sometimes call with Q5s here. Deep stacked poker is mostly played on the flop, not preflop gators. You need to open your understanding of NL hold'em. What is the big difference between calling here with AJs, T9s, 22, 99? There isn't much.

This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure there are. Specifically, the magic words 'implied odds' are shorthand for 'stacking somebody when the crap I call with flops something really cool'. So the rule you are missing is that you should only call this hand when 1)you know how to play it well, 2)you think they are worse than you (not counting the 10/20 NL metagame or whatever), 3)you can sometimes stack them with it or at least take it away on an A72 board.

So, for example, let's say I make this raise and you call 85s, then a couple of people overcall behind. The following things will happen: 1)I will rarely pay you off without a magic A85 board*, 2)you will sometimes pay me off (when we both hit but I hit better due to my starting hands), 3)you will fold to my bets a lot or I will check fold my missed AK and you will fold anyway because you also missed and it's a 4 way pot.

*Lots of times, because this is 85s, what will happen instead is that I will hit top pair etc. and you will hit a draw. This is when you say the magic words 'implied odds' again and call or raise my bet, and I or someone behind me says 'but I have the best hand' and we wind up playing a big pot with you as a dog/you call two streets, bet when your draw hits and win surprisingly little/you had more than everybody else after all and win a small pot.

I am convinced that coldcalling hands like these are a leak for the vast majority of players**, because it requires that you play really well and can often take pots down with nothing (which isn't really possible at that point in the 11r, BTW). I've never played with you that I remember so you might very well be an exception, but I would like to throw that out there.

**note that if 3 people coldcalled that raise ahead of you, this would be an entirely different story due solely to the fact that you now have position on lots of idiots in a much bigger pot that people won't fold in.
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