AK OOP against a PFR question

[orange]

This is somewhat theorish, but whatever. Here is a typical situation. Asume 100BB stacks with a typical passive/bad/juicy table. AKo in SB, few limps to button who raises 4xBB. You call, rest fold. Flop comes a dry A 4 8, or something of the sort (perhaps a J,Q flop as well, such as A J 2,etc.). This post was inspired by this hand so please read this first.

In the past, I used to always lead here. But after reading xorbie's response, what is your standard play regarding TPTK OOP against a PFR? I have since started c/c-ing a PFR and depending on the turn, leading or c/c-ing again.

IMO, c/c is superior after giving some thought. Helps for pot control, gives villan more of a chance to bluff with worse cards, and prevents c/r. It also helps get to showdown.

What are your thoughts on leading/c/c/or c/r-ing on hands such as these?

[beavens]

90% i'll lead and reevaluate based upon what the villain does.

[djoyce003]

well you are WA/WB right. Standard default for that is to call down because it usually gets you there the cheapest. I change this up depending on villains though. If I know the guy will fire another barrel on the turn I probably check/call it...if I know he likes to chck behind on the turn I'll lead.....read dependent. If the turn is draw heavy I might also lead so I don't give a free card to a hand that might beat me.

I think raising here to "find out where you are" that was mentioned in the other post is really really bad because it lets hands that are worse than yours fold, and it could lose you more than other hands....what could villain really have on a super dry flop after he raised preflop? Really all you are worried about is a set or AA but as the flop is something like A84 it's hard to put the preflop raiser on 88 or 44, and AA is unlikely given that you hold the case ace.....I really can't see you "getting away" from TPTK on a board like that against a preflop raiser, but I think raising could let AT-AQ off the hook.

[orange]

I agree that turn play is read/board dependent. I just think leading the flop sometimes creats problems for playing the rest of the hand (pot control, big c/r, etc). Any more thoughts?

Obviously I'm leading calling stations, super donks, etc, but for a standard, ok player, is c/c not better?

[orange]

Bump once. Do any other posters have any thoughts regarding TPTK OOP against a PFR? Is leading or c/c-ing best in a general standpoint (assuming no reads).

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
Bump once. Do any other posters have any thoughts regarding TPTK OOP against a PFR? Is leading or c/c-ing best in a general standpoint (assuming no reads).

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually do what I think will get me the cheapest showdown, which is usually c/c unimproved. If I limped it (because my raises get too much respect) then I would lead out.

[stu-unger]

i like c/c flop, 1/2-2/3 pot turn as a standard into pfr...

I think the answer to your question is heavily dependent on the texture of the board. If the board is draw heavy, I probably lead, dry, I will be more inclined to c/c. If it is draw heavy and my opponents like to bet draws, maybe a c/r.

[ajmargarine]

Here's a hand I played the other day that sort of addresses what you are talking about. CO and Button were pretty goofy and I didn't want to play a big hand OOP vs them, even though it was only a minraise preflop.

.50/$1 NLHE 6-handed

Preflop: Hero is SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, CO minraises to $2, Button calls $2, Hero calls $1.50, BB calls $1.

Flop: ($7.75) A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (4 players) </font>
Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets $6.60, Button folds, Hero calls $6.60, BB folds.

Turn: ($20.20) T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (2 players) </font>
Hero checks, CO bets $5, Hero raises to $15, CO calls $15.

River: ($49.20) J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (2 players) </font>
Hero bets $15, CO calls $15.

CO shows A4, and Hero's hand is good.

Alot of times AK is worth a preflop reraise. Against certain villians and at certain times when Hero's image is suffering, it's not a good idea. OOP sucks at NLHE. Playing from the blinds is a huge disadvantage.

I almost always c/c TP hands from the blinds on the flop. And then reevaluate the turn. Here, MP telegraphed his weak A from his turn bet size. Here, I'm not worried about protecting against a flush draw. I'm perfectly willing to drop this hand OOP against heat. Since I stopped fighting to the death for every pot when I caught a piece, my winrate has gone up, up, up.

[orange]

Nice. Thanks for some input.