Big stacks and implied odds

[sweetjazz]

I just want to see if I have a good sense of how to estimate implied odds. Let's say you and the villain both have ??? BB stacks. You limp in EP with ?? and the villain raises to ? times the BB. The question is when should you call the raise, hoping to stack him or at least win a big pot with his hand. Here's the read on the villain: he's a tight player who you haven't seen play many hands, but you suspect he might have a tough time getting away from an overpair or TPTK hand. Your image is one of being a bit loose aggressive, so you don't think you have enough fold equity to try to make a play at the pot postflop. Still, let's say there is a 20% chance that if you make your hand, you will not get paid even if he has an overpair or TPTK. (It's more likely you'll get paid off by an AA overpair than a TT overpair, and it's less likely you'll get paid off it you make a flush than if you make two pair, a straight or set.) Let's say, for simplicity, that villain's raising in this situation puts his hand squarely in the range AA-TT, AK/AQs.

You hold 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He raises to 5x the BB. How many BBs should (the minimum of) your two stacks have in order for you to call here?

Same question, but now you hold T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Same question, but now you hold 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

What about junky hands like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], or Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? I'd imagine that it would make sense to play these hands if the stacks were really big (not that limping in the first place makes as much sense but let's worry about that here).

Now what happens if the raise is to 10x the BB (maybe there were several limpers in before you, but they have folded the raise). How big do the stacks have to be in order to call with the 3 representative hands?

Also, I'd assume that if the villain's raising range is a little bit bigger, that cuts down our implied odds since our fold equity doesn't go up enough but our chances of getting paid off go down.

Anyway, guess these are a lot of questions, but responses for a few representative hands (not necessarily all that I listed) would be appreciated.

Usually when i have a pocket pair i will call up to 8% of my total stack from a raise from my opponent. If he's a LAG maybe something like 10%.

6-6 ---
I dont even understand y you are asking this question. If you put him on 10-10 - AA your folding everything Preflop unless your holding JJ-AA. You need about 20:1 odds to make this call because thats basically what you are. 2 outs to make your hand. Same with all those marginal hands, this isn't a very good example of how to use implied odds.

This reminds me of this post. Deep Stacks, Implied Odds, Preflop Play and The State of SSNL

I think that all of these questions depend on your confidence in your postflop play and the postflop play of your opponent.

Just off the top of my head ill take a shot at some of these...

[ QUOTE ]
You hold 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] . He raises to 5x the BB. How many BBs should (the minimum of) your two stacks have in order for you to call here?


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I would say minimum 50 BBs in each of our respective stacks.

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Same question, but now you hold T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] .

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Being out of position, I would want each of us to have 200 BBs minimum before I thought about calling.

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Same question, but now you hold 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] .


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Same as the previous hand, 200 BBs each.

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What about junky hands like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] , or Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ? I'd imagine that it would make sense to play these hands if the stacks were really big (not that limping in the first place makes as much sense but let's worry about that here).


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The villain would have to be impossibly bad postflop to make calling OOP with these hands correct, no matter how deep the stacks IMO. If limping is not correct then obviously calling a raise cant be.

[sweetjazz]

Thanks for the link and the replies. Those seem like reasonable estimates and it emphasizes the importance of position. While you wanted at least 200BB in our stacks before calling with T8s if the raise was to 5x the BB, I imagine you might flat call the raise on the button when the stacks were somewhere in the 100-150 BB range.

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I imagine you might flat call the raise on the button when the stacks were somewhere in the 100-150 BB range.

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Yes I would, and possibly with even smaller stacks than that depending on my read on the opponent.