value betting? (they never call!!!!)

[roxtar]

When you have what you're pretty sure is the best hand on the turn or river.... How in tarnation do you get calls? I've been betting out anywhere from the min. to 1/2 the pot and I can't get a call to save my life and it's really beginning to frustrate me. What's a good way to gauge the amount to bet that you will get paid off? Or is there something I'm missing in the whole concept?
I try not to slowplay and give opponants free cards to make their flushes and straights. But all I read around here is that these games (especially low limit ones) are full of fish that will push their own mothers down a flight of stairs if they have any hope of making a straight or flush. That hasn't been my experience thus far in my short online "career".
Could this be a leak in my game that needs fixing or am I worrying about something that's not all that big of a deal? Is there any time that taking down a pot w/o a showdown is bad?

[pzhon]

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What's a good way to gauge the amount to bet that you will get paid off?

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Think of what hands your opponent might have, and how much they would be willing to call with those hands.

Example 1:
I rivered a royal flush, out of position. The board had 4 to a flush, and it was paired. My opponent had the size of the pot left. How much should I bet? Answer: Very little. If my opponent has a full house, all of the money will go in anyway. If my opponent does not have a full house, he must be terrified of the board, and he has at best the third highest flush. The right amount to bet may be nothing to induce a bluff, or 1/5 of the pot or less to get a call from a weak flush or worse. At the table, I bet too much, and my opponent folded. He didn't have anything, though.

Example 2:
I had 98 in the big blind. Flop: J74r. Someone made a minimum bet, there was a call from late position, and I overcalled. Turn: 5, making a flush draw possible. Again, there was a minimum bet, a call, and I overcalled. River: 6, no flush possible, putting 4 to a straight on the board and giving me the nut straight. I didn't think anyone with a 3 would stay in, but anyone with an 8 would call any amount, but might not raise. I didn't think anyone had a decent hand on the turn or else they would have protected their hand from the flush draw. I open-pushed for 3 times the pot, and was called by the minbettor who had 87.

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Is there any time that taking down a pot w/o a showdown is bad?

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Of course. Some hands are worth more than the current size of the pot since you expect that you can get called by worse hands. However, if your opponents have nothing, and don't feel like bluffing, you can't get anything.

[pzhon]

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I had 98 in the big blind. Flop: J74r. Someone made a minimum bet, there was a call from late position, and I overcalled. Turn: 5, making a flush draw possible. Again, there was a minimum bet, a call, and I overcalled. River: 6, no flush possible, putting 4 to a straight on the board and giving me the nut straight. I didn't think anyone with a 3 would stay in, but anyone with an 8 would call any amount, but might not raise. I didn't think anyone had a decent hand on the turn or else they would have protected their hand from the flush draw. I open-pushed for 3 times the pot, and was called by the minbettor who had 87.

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By the way, this line wasn't optimal. Since someone with an 8 would almost certainly bet, then call a check-raise all-in, and I'll rarely get called by someone without an 8, but someone without an 8 might bet, it would have been better to check-raise all-in instead of pushing. The point was that you can sometimes make large value bets, while sometimes you have to make very small value bets.