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  #1  
Old 09-19-2005, 02:54 AM
Eeegah Eeegah is offline
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Location: Raising 99 and flopping quads
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Default Raising then autobetting missed flops. (Warning: 10 hands)

A perhaps rather large leak I've found is my tendency to autobet flops after raising preflop. It doesn't matter the texture of the flop, I still bet out, and oftentimes it costs me quite a bit, especially against passive players who are content to let you bet at them on every street.

In light of this, here are ten hands of mine over the past three months where I raised preflop despite an unfavorable flop to some degree or other. I autobet/raised the flop on most if not all of these, but several are rather questionable (though one or two are blatantly obvious bets to me). What's you're plan on these, and do they differ from a simple autobet? What's your plan if you do bet and are raised/checkraised? Skeletal reads are provided for players where I have any at all, as I don't remember what specifics I had at the time, so these reads may actually be more than what I had. Also, not all of these are losses.

Sorry about posting so many of these, but they should go quickly as they're not complete hands.

<font color="blue">Hand 1</font>
MP3: LAP
CO: TAG
SB: SLAA

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero...

<font color="blue">Hand 2</font>
UTG+2: LPP
MP1: LPP

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, Hero...

<font color="blue">Hand 3</font>
SB: LPP
BB: SLAP

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Flop: (9 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero...

<font color="blue">Hand 4</font>
BB: TAA
PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (3 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero...

<font color="blue">Hand 5</font>
BB: LAP
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero...

<font color="blue">Hand 6</font>
UTG+1: LAP
MP1: LPP
MP3: LPP

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero...

<font color="blue">Hand 7</font>
MP2: LAG
CO: LPP

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero...

<font color="blue">Hand 8</font>
MP2: LAG
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (12.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, Hero...

<font color="blue">Hand 9</font>
SB: SLPP
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero...

<font color="blue">Hand 10</font>
(no reads)

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero...

Thanks again for taking the time to help out. My overall AF is creeping up over 3 again; maybe this'll help me be a bit more selective with my aggression.

(edit: fixed a couple reads' positions)
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  #2  
Old 09-19-2005, 03:08 AM
milesdyson milesdyson is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 197
Default Re: Raising then autobetting missed flops. (Warning: 10 hands)

1. definitely check
2. fold
3. raise or fold. SLAP is not enough to determine which
4. can't decide
5. bet
6. check (next action dependent on odds we get when it gets back to us)
7. bad 3-bet preflop. made your hand terribly hard to play postflop.
8. 3-bet because a player is between you and check call twice if he caps.
9. fold
10. stab at it.
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  #3  
Old 09-19-2005, 03:18 AM
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Default Re: Raising then autobetting missed flops. (Warning: 10 hands)

I'll give a quick shot at these before I go to bed.

Hand 1 - HERO checks I don't see much value in betting this. You are not likely to think out the field. I think I want to see a turn and river as cheaply as possible

Hand 2 - HERO folds. He is likely donking a pair, and on a king high board like this, I'm pretty sure he has a king. As such I don't think we have the odds to continue.

Hand 3 - HERO raises. You have a semi-LAG donking into you, take the chance to try to knock out everyone else.

Hand 4 - HERO calls. Donking like this usually means a pair. I think I call, w/ implied odds I think it's worth it to try to spike an A or K.

Hand 5 - HERO bets. I think the K gives you a lot of fold equity. I'd be alot happier if the button wasn't there. But I think you have to bet it. Probably I fire again on the turn.

Hand 6 - HERO checks - But I am pretty clueless in these situatinos. FWIW Idon't raise KJs here I don't think it has enough equity to make up for having to play it OOP.

Hand 7 - Again I'm clueless. I probably bet here, but I don' think it really matters. With a field this big I don't think you're going to showdown unless you improve.

Hand 8 - Hero Raises - For value. You have everyone trapped for an extra bet. It also makes the hand a lot easier to play as you have clearly defined your hand. If it gets capped and then is two bets back to you on the turn I think I can find a fold.

Hand 9 - Hero Folds. Small pot, I think SB has an ace or a PP way too often to make a continuing profitable.

Hand 10 - Hero Bets - Go ahead and take a shot at it. You will fold them out often enough I think for it to be a good bet.

Hope that helps a little. Most of these are extremely difficult to play, with UI overcards OOP. I have come to play pretty passively with them when the field is big, as you are going to have to improve to win, and I want to put as few bets in as possible if I don't.
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  #4  
Old 09-19-2005, 04:15 AM
POKhER POKhER is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: .50/1 At Stars - LONDON, UK.
Posts: 590
Default Re: Raising then autobetting missed flops. (Warning: 10 hands)

*grunch*
1: Check
2: Fold
3: Fold (Calling sucks, Donk bet screams Q)
4: Fold (Even though we may have 6 outs IMO)
5: Check/Fold(To many outs to lose to, Not last to act)
6: Check/Fold(GS/OC's = 6? Maybe be drawing dead
7: bet, Mp2 may raise and knock out field/Clear outs. see what turn brings
8: Fold.
9: Fold
10: bet

Undecided/Confused on a few of these. Specially 8.
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  #5  
Old 09-19-2005, 05:00 AM
DavidC DavidC is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 292
Default Re: Raising then autobetting missed flops. (Warning: 10 hands)

Here's my lines against unknowns (with question marks over questionable plays):

1) Check.

2) Call, planning to bluff-raise the turn?

3) Raise?

4) Raise for the free card.

5) Check?

6) Check/fold.

7) Bet. Interesting PF move (this is taking LAG into acct), btw.

8) Raise.

9) Raise, bet the turn as last-money.

10) Bet, hope one of them has a 5 and that you suck out on the Ocean (6th board card) for quads jacks: cap to the Ocean for max value here.
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  #6  
Old 09-19-2005, 07:49 AM
@bsolute_luck @bsolute_luck is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hi...I\'m in Delaware
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Default Re: Raising then autobetting missed flops. (Warning: 10 hands)

WARNING: i will probably echo others, but i figure if the majority come to agreement, then that should help us all find the best line.

1. check
2. fold
3. raise
4. call
5. bet
6. check (i don't raise preflop here)
7. i don't 3-bet AQo OOP, so you might as well bet. OC, goofy SD, and BDFD. probably check/fold the turn UI though.
8. raise
9. fold
10. bet
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  #7  
Old 09-19-2005, 08:04 AM
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Default Re: Raising then autobetting missed flops. (Warning: 10 hands)

Ok, I think i am a fair bit more LAG than most, being a 6max-only player, but:

1. Bet and test the waters. Most likely fire again on the turn UI.

2. Fold, likely reverse dominated, or drawing to 3 weak outs.

3. This one is really tough, probably raise and try to get to showdown cheap. If 3bet/donked on 4th or 5th street then lay it down UI (Possibly call on 4th if you pick up a 9 with 3 left in the pot)

4. Im fairly split between raising and calling here, against a TAA i think you have to call and fold the turn UI. If you think you can get him to slow down with a raise then go for it and take the free card.

5. Really not sure how much fold equity is giving you over any J. I think i fire once dependent on my read on the button. Fold to any checkraise or turn donk. Fire again once more on the turn if checked too, but check through the river.

6. I really dont find an equity raise here preflop, its made the postflop harder. Any decent heart is calling you, most Ts and even 9s at this level are too. Although you probably have a lot of outs for a semibluff, they are all tainted, I think you just check here and reevaluate.

7. Bet/Call. Fold turn UI. Fire turn if not raised on flop.

8. Raise and continue with caution. If it gets capped, dont put more than one more bet in on the turn or river.

9. I just call here preflop. But I dont see an SLPP betting without an A or a PP. So fold.

10. Im going to go out on a limb here and say check/call, folding turn UI. At .25/.50 I just see way too many aces not laying down at all just on the off chance they can 'catch' you bluffing.
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  #8  
Old 09-19-2005, 08:29 AM
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Default Re: Raising then autobetting missed flops. (Warning: 10 hands)

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
1: Check
2: Fold
3: Fold (Calling sucks, Donk bet screams Q)
4: Fold (Even though we may have 6 outs IMO)
5: Check/Fold(To many outs to lose to, Not last to act)
6: Check/Fold(GS/OC's = 6? Maybe be drawing dead
7: bet, Mp2 may raise and knock out field/Clear outs. see what turn brings
8: Fold.
9: Fold
10: bet

Undecided/Confused on a few of these. Specially 8.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have trouble folding hand 8 on the flop. MP2 is LAG and could easily be raising anything from A3o to 66-TT, or possibly even a draw. I'd need to at least see the turn before I throw away my overpair. Definitely 3-bet the flop, and then you'll have some idea of where you stand on the turn.

- thing85 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
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  #9  
Old 09-19-2005, 08:39 AM
imported_The Vibesman imported_The Vibesman is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Smokin\' With Bacall
Posts: 895
Default Re: Raising then autobetting missed flops. (Warning: 10 hands)

Hand1: Check, evaluate action.
2. Fold.
3. Raise.
4. Call, release UI on turn if bet into again.
5. Bet.
6. Check. Not wild about PF raise OOP against three opponents with a possibly dominated hand.
7. Check. Again, not wild about the OOP 3bet, you're generally only going to eliminate one player, and you're bloating the pot.
8. This one is kind of interesting. A 3bet might be spewing, but I like it better than a call if we are to continue.
9. If he's very passive normally I may fold here.
10. Bets.
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  #10  
Old 09-19-2005, 08:46 AM
jrz1972 jrz1972 is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 368
Default Re: Raising then autobetting missed flops. (Warning: 10 hands)

quick grunch:

1. Check
2. Fold
3. Raise
4. Call
5. Bet
6. Check
7. I strongly object to the preflop 3-bet. The way you played it I lead the flop.
8. Reraise
9. Fold
10. Bet
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