A pair of hands.

Eeegah · #1 09-16-2005, 01:17 AM

The whole table is pretty damn passive, and both villains here would rather check a hand to the river than bet middle pair.

Hand 1:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP raises, Hero...

Fairly sure he's got an A here, and the odds are a little against me since two of the cards I outkick give him two pair. I could see going WA/WB, checkraising the turn or 3-betting here. What's our plan?

Hand 2:
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, Button calls, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero caps, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero...

I don't like this at all, and someone's going to have to do same damned good arguing to advocate seeing the turn. Anyone wanna step up?

Paxosmotic · #2 09-16-2005, 01:19 AM

Hand 1 : Check/call, check/call, bet.

Hand 2 : Raise the flop, if he 3bets, then like a gentle breeze on a summer's day may your cards find the muck.

#3 09-16-2005, 01:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 : Check/call, check/call, bet.

Hand 2 : Raise the flop, if he 3bets, then like a gentle breeze on a summer's day may your cards find the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 2 if we raise and get 3-bet, the pot is going to be 18SB back to us. Set draw, BDFD, BDSD. Peel and fold the turn unimproved, no?

Paxosmotic · #4 09-16-2005, 01:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 : Check/call, check/call, bet.

Hand 2 : Raise the flop, if he 3bets, then like a gentle breeze on a summer's day may your cards find the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 2 if we raise and get 3-bet, the pot is going to be 18SB back to us. Set draw, BDFD, BDSD. Peel and fold the turn unimproved, no?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah we can do that.

chiachu · #5 09-16-2005, 01:41 AM

that seems like the best line to me

#6 09-16-2005, 01:45 AM

Ugh. I hate when these types of things happen.

Hand 1 - If we take a WA/WB line we need to have or improve to the best hand 1/4 times for this to be profitable. Based on your reads I think he has to have at least an ace, so if behind we're drawing to a three outer. The question is how often are we behind. I think a lot, and I fold.

Hand 2 - I think it depends on how good your read of the opponent. I think we are likely way behind and drawing thin with him leading the flop into us. You always have the random donk factor that this guy has 1010 or 99 or something, so I think maybe you can continue, but I think you can fold here.

I give absolutely zero thought to table image to in micro games so I'm not factoring that in.

EDIT: The more I think about hand 2, I think a fold is really bad. The pot is big and the random donk factor can't be ignored. I like a raise. If 3bet, call and fold the turn UI. If just called, I would fold to a turn donkbet, if checked to to on the turn bet to take a free showdown, folding to a c/r.

Bodhi · #7 09-16-2005, 05:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
someone's going to have to do same damned good arguing to advocate seeing the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

I have 13sb's worth of an argument, is that enough?

Bodhi · #8 09-16-2005, 05:45 AM

Folding Hand #1 without a fight is ridiculous. Hero shouldn't give any free cards, for that matter. Bet the turn, fold to a raise.

POKhER · #9 09-16-2005, 06:49 AM

Deleted my original post, after more thought i think we should:

Hand 1:

After thinking for a while, i say fold.

Why:
- Tiny Pot,
- Passive player with aggression,
- Top pair and weak kicker on a low board,
- If we hit an ace it wont help and chance sof hitting 8 are low.
- If we 3bet, he wont cap with AT, A9, he'll probably call down and then we lose UI.
- You say they are passive, im assuming he has a nice kicker or 2pair.

Hand 2:
I don't see what calling achieves, if we were first in i may call then donk bet and fold to a raise?

Raising or folding are the options.

Raising: If 3bet we can fold, If he calls is it because(We capped, he thinks we have set? Or he missed the King?)

The pot is big, We have middle PP, BDFD and BDSD but the hand i put him on beat us.
AA/KK/JJ/AK and you say the tables passive.

In conclusion, I fold.

@bsolute_luck · #10 09-16-2005, 07:47 AM

hand #1: [ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn, fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ] this is the best line.

hand #2: call here. fold the turn UI. count your outs and compare to the pot size (Fundamental poker):

1.5 outs for BDSD + 1.5 outs for BDFD + 2 outs for Qs: 5 outs. need 9:1 and getting 14:1. easiest call ever. even if you discount our BDFD for the possibility of being up against a higher flush, we're getting good odds.