K9s on the button. Am I getting better or worse?

[Barry]

Went off to Turning Stone for some golf and poker for a few days. After negotiating with the shift manager for a while he called a 20/40 game. It took a while as a few of the folks on the interest list were in the 1 10/20 game going and they were afraid that when they left the game would break. Apparently their procedures call for protecting existing games, even if they risk a greater number of other folks that would play in a game if it went would leave if the bigger game didn't go. Strange rules, but anyway we finally got the game going.

The game is great; mostly loose passive and almost always call the flop, with lots of cold calling preflop and there are a couple of overaggressive folks. One of my buddies is also in the game.

Anyway one overag limps, a loosie limps, the other overag raises, there's a cold caller. I'm on ther button and look down and see K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I look left and both of those loosie calling stations in the blinds have their chips at the ready so, I call and the blinds call. 7 to the flop.

Flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

The overag limper leads out, which could mean anything, loosie calls, the other overag just calls, which means he doesn't have a Q or an overpair, cold caller folds, I raise, both blinds call 2 bets cold. The bettor and callers call.

Turn is K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I'm not sure whether I love this card or hate it. Everybody checks to me, I figuratively grit my teeth and bet.

One of the blinds call, the other folds, flop bettor shrugs and calls, PF raiser calls.

River is a blank.

SB checks, flop bettor checks, PF raiser now wakes up and bets, I call, blind and flop bettor fold.

[lil feller]

...where it might be better to wait till the turn to raise?

It certainly seems like you have a good chance of being in front right now, but there are a lot of terrifying turn cards (including the Kclubs). The blinds aren't folding any pair/any draw whether its one bet or 2 (and aren't making a mistake in doing so). So really, what do you gain by raising the flop?

I think I'd just call here, and see how the turn develops and my plan would be to raise any (?) turn card, and go from there. Obviously if the turn is checked to you, you bet.

As the hand played out the turn bet is a must, as is the river call. Calling is really your only choice on the river, as the better could have anything, and we cleary have the blinds beat. I'd rather give them a chance to overcall with a worse hand, and not risk getting 3 bet by the original river bettor.

Even in a loose game, however, I still find a fold here PF I think. KTs, you bet, or any suited A, or no gapper i'm coming. K9s can be big trouble though, especially in a raised pot.

lf

[skp]

I fold preflop. You may right in assuming that you will have plenty of players in the pot but you only have K9s - a hand that is easily dominated. further, it's hard to get way from it even if you catch just a piece on the flop. Plus, your relative position is not all that great even though you have the button.

On the flop, there is a lot to be said for just calling (instead of raising) given that the bet came from EP and has already been called in two spots. You only have middle pair with which it might be okay to raise a bettor who is to your immediate right but IMO, not in the spot as described.

Calling the flop gives you some options on the turn that may not be available to you by raising the flop. Examples: Bowing out if a bad card comes and there is action on the turn, betting or raising on the turn and thereby represnting a hand stronger than just 1 pair if there is little or no action ahead of you.

This sequence of flop call/turn aggression is more likely to make your opponents make FTOP errors.

Overall, the loss of these options if you raise the flop outweigh any marginal gains realized by the flop raise.

Another reason to just call is that you only have K9...heh

Overall, raising here IMO is taking aggressive play to a counterproductive level. Nothing wrong with calling now and then even though it is generally regarded as a very unsexy play on these boards.

[psyduck]

I play everything the same except for the preflop coldcall, unless the raiser is SO loose that he'll raise with any two.

[Estydogg]

I don't think you played it bad at all. I probably wouldn't of re-raised the flop. There's no one to squeeze out for two bets, and your not on a draw to buy yourself a free card.

I just think you played a week hand and got caught when you made a piece.

In games with a lot of week players, you either want big hands or big draws. Weak high cards in multi-way pot just get you into trouble.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]

...where it might be better to wait till the turn to raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[Clarkmeister]

I concur that waiting til the turn isn't a bad idea here, but there's certainly nothing wrong with the way you actually played it.

[Barry]

The PF raiser and river bettor holds up his cards. My buddy is sitting left of him can see them and says "I don't think that that's good enough". He then lays down AJ both red for A high and MHIG.