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  #1  
Old 07-08-2005, 08:42 AM
frappeboy frappeboy is offline
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Default A question on weak drawing hands.

Lets say you start off with a hand like 567 in a multi-way pot. The person directly to your right holds a large pair (Lets say kings). On 4th street you catch an 8 and everyone behind you catches blanks. If the king bets, is it better to raise to knock out 3 flushes/larger 3 straights who would take off another card if you just called, or should you just call and let them in?
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  #2  
Old 07-09-2005, 06:46 PM
BeerMoney BeerMoney is offline
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Default Re: A question on weak drawing hands.

7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac Tc Qd 209236 41.85 290754 58.15 10 0.00 0.418
6s 5s 7d 4h 220140 44.03 279854 55.97 6 0.00 0.440
2c Td 9d 4d 70608 14.12 429376 85.88 16 0.00 0.141


7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac Jd 2d 183253 36.65 316728 63.35 19 0.00 0.367
6s 5s 7d 4h 226291 45.26 273709 54.74 0 0.00 0.453
Js 6c Td 9d 90437 18.09 409544 81.91 19 0.00 0.181

It looks like its not a big deal to keep them in.. I don't know..I suppose it depends a little on 3rd st. action which wouldn't be too heavy if you're in there with a 3 str8.
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Old 07-09-2005, 09:05 PM
stanky stanky is offline
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Default Re: A question on weak drawing hands.

I think you want to keep as many players in the hand as possible because it would increase your pot odds. You may miss on 5th and 6th and some of your outs may show up in other players hands so you want a good price to see 7th and you'll get a much better price with 3-4 players than with it heads up. Like Beer pointed out 3 str8 and 3 frushes on 4th have little chance of winning compared to your 4 str8 and a premium pair so let them make a mistake by calling 4th, don't raise and give them a chance to fold their crappy hand.

The way I think of it when I have a 4 str8 or flush on 4th is , the more players and the more money the merrier. Then I make the play that will get me those two things.
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  #4  
Old 07-10-2005, 07:28 PM
Bartholow Bartholow is offline
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Default Re: A question on weak drawing hands.

I'm interested in this topic but I don't have time to draw up a lengthy reply. So let me just say a) pot equity is not the only thing to consider by any means b) is it really incorrect for a player with a live 3-flush to call on 4th as stanky indicates?
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  #5  
Old 07-10-2005, 08:06 PM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Re: A question on weak drawing hands.

There are many times when it is correct to stick around on fourth with a three-flush for one bet and not two.

To answer the original poster, you generally want to keep people in when you're on a draw. Whether you should be playing 765 is open to debate.
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  #6  
Old 07-10-2005, 08:16 PM
BeerMoney BeerMoney is offline
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Default Re: A question on weak drawing hands.

[ QUOTE ]
There are many times when it is correct to stick around on fourth with a three-flush for one bet and not two.

To answer the original poster, you generally want to keep people in when you're on a draw. Whether you should be playing 765 is open to debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Original poster is a good player and understands basic concepts and is probably only playing these hands under favorable conditions..ie, he may be the bring in, his hand may have started out as a 3 flush, etc..
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  #7  
Old 07-11-2005, 09:12 AM
frappeboy frappeboy is offline
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Default Re: A question on weak drawing hands.

I only end up in situations like this if im the bring-in or in last position and my cards are live.. The problem is, although most of the time the flush draw will miss on 5th, when he does hit it can be a complete disaster for your hand. The same thing could be said for a small flush draw in this situation.

I've done a little thinking about it and I guess like anything in poker, it depends on the table. If its a tight table, just calling here is probably right because many players won't take a card off with a 4 flush.. If it's a very loose table raising might be best because it's very possible players could call a double bet with weak hands which is good for you.
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  #8  
Old 07-11-2005, 09:27 AM
BeerMoney BeerMoney is offline
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Default Re: A question on weak drawing hands.

Here's the thing though.. How do you know they have drawing hands?

How often will they have crummy pairs?

Last night I saw lstream raise the field out with a 4 flush on 4th when I thought he should have just drafted.
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  #9  
Old 07-11-2005, 10:52 AM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Re: A question on weak drawing hands.

It's not like you're going to get a flush draw out by raising on fourth street. The hands you are most likely to knock out are the hands you would most like to stay in.
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  #10  
Old 07-11-2005, 11:20 AM
BeerMoney BeerMoney is offline
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Default Re: A question on weak drawing hands.

[ QUOTE ]
It's not like you're going to get a flush draw out by raising on fourth street. The hands you are most likely to knock out are the hands you would most like to stay in.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's talking about a 3 flush on 4th st. not a 4 flush on 4th st.

For example, in a raised/completed pot on 3rd, i usually "peel one off" if I don't catch my four flush on 4th. And, we will all agree, it is commonly correct to see another card. So, with that said, is it correct to make it two bets for hands like this to fold. Who is profiting from this play when you make it two bets? The player with the big pair? The player with the 4 str8? Or, as Magic Johnson would say, "Boaf".
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