Over the hump

[revots33]

I only play low limits - but my feeling is that players at higher limits must certainly be trickier than those at lower limits. Since they are trickier it will be even harder to know whether a fold or call on the river is correct.

I guess my point is, that moving up in limits just so you will respect your opponents is not necessarily +EV, because the competition will be tougher. Don't get me wrong... if you want to move up then go ahead. If you're crushing the current games, and the limits aren't meaningful to you, then go for it. But either way, I think you need to think more on the river before deciding to call or fold. Donks get good hands too, in fact my guess is they bluff less on the river than good players do, who know when the situation is right for a well-timed bluff.

Estimate your opponent's possible range of hands, calculate the percentage chance he's bluffing based on your read, and then call or fold based on the pot odds and these percentages (Harrington on Hold'em, although a tournament book, has a GREAT discussion on this).

You'll need to do this no matter what limits you're at, so you should be able to do it at the lower limits as well. While moving up in limits may in fact be right for you, purposely facing tougher competition just because you will "respect them more" is not an easy solution to the problem IMO.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
I only play low limits - but my feeling is that players at higher limits must certainly be trickier than those at lower limits. Since they are trickier it will be even harder to know whether a fold or call on the river is correct.

I guess my point is, that moving up in limits just so you will respect your opponents is not necessarily +EV, because the competition will be tougher. Don't get me wrong... if you want to move up then go ahead. If you're crushing the current games, and the limits aren't meaningful to you, then go for it. But either way, I think you need to think more on the river before deciding to call or fold. Donks get good hands too, in fact my guess is they bluff less on the river than good players do, who know when the situation is right for a well-timed bluff.

Estimate your opponent's possible range of hands, calculate the percentage chance he's bluffing based on your read, and then call or fold based on the pot odds and these percentages (Harrington on Hold'em, although a tournament book, has a GREAT discussion on this).

You'll need to do this no matter what limits you're at, so you should be able to do it at the lower limits as well. While moving up in limits may in fact be right for you, purposely facing tougher competition just because you will "respect them more" is not an easy solution to the problem IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do intellectually understand how to calculate when to call or fold -- or even bluff raise -- on the end, but I seem to add a special and only semiconscious "donk" factor which skews my results so that I end up calling more often than I should. Overall, I think I do a pretty good job of picking off bluffs when the play of the hand simply doesn't add up, but I probably call 10-15% too often in these situations simply because the donk factor is throwing off my final calculation. The thought process is correct, I just have an added factor that has no place in good poker. Also, I do agree that HoH is great in this regard.

All in all I think my ego is the problem here. It is causing me to undervalue my opponent -- and hence call off money when it is not warranted -- while also causing me to not move up because I seem to get a certain satisfaction out of beating up on the really bad players. If I do indeed want to become both a better and more profitable player I'll need to learn how to manage or eliminate this factor from my game.

Thanks to all who responded. Anymore thoughts or comments are welcome.

[Dan Mezick]

It appears you are unwilling to experience your own feelings about your own game's true quality, or percieved lack thereof.

It appears you want or need to feel 'gall' to play a set of opponents. The definition may provide some insight into your issue:

gall:
resentment. a feeling of deep and bitter anger and ill-will

Why not stop playing for awhile and do some introspection until you get a handle on the emotional aspect?

[ZenMusician]

May we all remember that we are still students, and that
the best teachers are sometimes students...

Fantastic Post, hope that "stranger" level goes away soon!

Welcome to our forums!

-ZEN

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
It appears you are unwilling to experience your own feelings about your own game's true quality, or percieved lack thereof.

It appears you want or need to feel 'gall' to play a set of opponents. The definition may provide some insight into your issue:

gall:
resentment. a feeling of deep and bitter anger and ill-will

Why not stop playing for awhile and do some introspection until you get a handle on the emotional aspect?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the response, Dan. I did take a brief period of time off to reflect on what my motivations are and why I'm making the mistakes I am making, as well as to consider my overall perspective on the game. I also think I misused the word "gall" in my original post. Nerve is much closer to what I meant, although the fact that I accidentally used gall could be indicative of something.

As I stated in my last post, I think that my ego is the main thing that is holding me back and is causing both the technical problem in my game while also keeping me from moving up. I have a problem at times in accepting failure in my own life and it seems clear that this aspect of my personality is clouding my judgement at the tables. I plan to take the steps neccesary to rectify the problem and the feedback in this thread has been a good start to that journey.

[steamboatin]

[ QUOTE ]
I've always prided myself on my ability to write lucidly and to convey complex thoughts in an understandable way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you are not overvaluing your poker skills as much as you overvalue your communication skills. Paragraphs, please.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
As I stated in my last post, I think that my ego is the main thing that is holding me back and is causing both the technical problem in my game while also keeping me from moving up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best advice I can think of is to be confident in your game - but work hard not to underestimate your opponents. At any level. True, there are more fish at the lower limits. But 1)Fish get good hands occasionally, so you still can't always assume they've got nothing and 2)there are some good players (like yourself for instance) who for one reason or another play the lower-limit games.

In other words, try to analyze each PLAYER based on their play (you'll obviously need to do this as you move up), and avoid blanket statements like "all the players at this buyin at Party are fish". This type of thinking will lead you to make bad calls, even against a player who's proven himself to be a tight, solid player over several hours of play.

It seems like you've already identified the problem (which is the tough part), and I'm sure you'll take the correct steps to fix it. Best of luck as you move up!

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've always prided myself on my ability to write lucidly and to convey complex thoughts in an understandable way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you are not overvaluing your poker skills as much as you overvalue your communication skills. Paragraphs, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

More breaks are probably necessary online just to make it easier on the eyes, but I think that if you pick up any book you have laying around you'll see that many paragraphs are quite long.

If you were to reread my first post you'll see that the problem is not paragraph length -- each paragraph is only 5 sentences -- but length of sentence.

In the future I'll try to break my longer posts into smaller chunks for better readability.

BTW, normally I'd have made this one paragraph. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
Overall, I think I do a pretty good job of picking off bluffs when the play of the hand simply doesn't add up, but I probably call 10-15% too often in these situations simply because the donk factor is throwing off my final calculation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been thinking about this problem too. I play on a small site with a lot of regulars, and I can get away when other regulars push hard (or make a conscious decision to call, knowing that I'm either way behind or they are on a sheer bluff, not donkishly overbetting a mediocre hand). It's the unknown players and the idiots who tend to beat me for large amounts of money.

Here's a good rule, though it requires a read: if he's the kind of donkey that calls a lot, and plays very passively, then you should lean toward folding the river when he bets or raises. If he's the kind of donkey that bets a lot, then you should lean toward calling when he bets or raises.