Over the hump

[Aytumious]

I basically have one main aspect of my poker play that is holding me back, but first a short history. My first exposure to Hold Em was two years ago in a $5 tourney. It took me about three months of part-time play to become a decent winning player, then another two before I felt very confident that when I sat down I'd be able to tell what my edge was in a given game. I've played up to the 600NL games on party and have been playing professionally for a little over one year now two tabling the NL 6 max games on the net. I'm quite happy with my decision overall, but I have an obstacle I need to overcome and I'm hoping the intelligent people on this board can provide some insights.

Basically, despite a long track record of success and a high level of confidence in my own technical skill in the game I've chosen to focus on, I still make what I consider to be a very basic error in the heat of the moment. The main technical error is calling off money on the river when my opponent has made it clear through his betting that I am quite likely beat. I think the problem persists because I do not truly respect the skill of my opponents and I assume they don't have the hand they are representing because they are typical Party donks, which is actually what I think at the time in these situation: I think the donk can't actually have X hand that beats me right now. Sometimes I am correct in my play and pick off bluffs and semi-bluffs, but over the long term I am losing money by calling in these situations. I do not think this is my main issue, however, but only a symptom of the main problem.

The main problem is that I know that I am playing below my skill level, and hence do not respect my opponents, yet I have not had the gall to move up to a level where it is clear to me I am out of my league or at least playing with others who really challenge me. Some may think that is arrogant somehow, but I think it is a fairly common problem with winning players and I'm wondering what strategy others have used to overcome this problem. I really do think I could both increase my winrate as well as increase the joy and challenge I derive from the game if I move up, yet for some reason I continue to pound on players who I really believe are not very good. This is clearly detrimental to my development, yet I stay at the 100 and 200 buyin games and think to myself how terrible the players I play with truly are, and then I get frustrated when they actually do beat me because I'm convinced they are for the most part clueless. Obviously there is some ego involved here, as well as some fear of failing when I play the higher limits, but I am sure I am not alone with this line of thinking and I truly would like to know what it was that pushed players who are in a similar situation to where I am now over the hump. All comments are welcome.

[mosquito]

Goals, goals, goals. What are they?
Money?
Skill level?
Why do you play?


Answer those, you may know how to answer yours.

[Pepsquad]

"yet for some reason I continue to pound on players who I really believe are not very good."

-----------------------------------

You speak of this as though it's a bad thing. You wanna be challenged? Start playing chess, soccer, weightlifting. This is about time and money. If you're beginning to feel unfulfilled at the level you're playing at and need a challenge - then maybe start taking shots at the higher limits. But the scary thing for me is listening to you say "Help. I'm losing money in common situations. I should move up in limits." Ummmm, Houston...we have a problem. Continue the beatings at your current level, work on plugging your Losse Passive situations at THIS level. Then you'll be ready for the higher levels.

JMHO. Pep.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
"yet for some reason I continue to pound on players who I really believe are not very good."

-----------------------------------

You speak of this as though it's a bad thing. You wanna be challenged? Start playing chess, soccer, weightlifting. This is about time and money. If you're beginning to feel unfulfilled at the level you're playing at and need a challenge - then maybe start taking shots at the higher limits. But the scary thing for me is listening to you say "Help. I'm losing money in common situations. I should move up in limits." Ummmm, Houston...we have a problem. Continue the beatings at your current level, work on plugging your Losse Passive situations at THIS level. Then you'll be ready for the higher levels.

JMHO. Pep.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually agree completely with your criticism Pep, which is why I posted this. It seems that the same leak that is causing me to not move up is also causing me to not respect my opponents bets in situations when I should. That, obviously, is a large leak in both cases and I was wondering if any other long term winners had a similar scenario and how they overcame it. It's possible I am being both a wimp in terms of not moving up and arrogant in my assessment of my opponents at the lower levels, which is becoming clear to me as I reread my original post. Psychologically I find that to be both interesting and troublesome because it is detrimental to my play in both cases.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
Goals, goals, goals. What are they?
Money?
Skill level?
Why do you play?


Answer those, you may know how to answer yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for the post, mosquito. This is actually right on the money. Since I play to pay the bills, I've sometimes let that aspect of it seep into my mind. In the 14 months since I've been playing professionally, I have never missed my minimum monthly nut. I would imagine that many old time B&M pros would tell me to stfu and stop whining, yet my issues are clearly costing me money and I've not yet been able to say to hell with the monthly nut, let's move up and test my skill and, hopefully, increase my winrate.

As to your question about goals, my main goals going into this were to be an excellent player technically, both good enough to make a nice living and also to perhaps write a book on the subject of strategy. Technically I think I have a very good grasp of the game, but I still study constantly and aim to keep improving and tweaking my game throughout my life. I've always prided myself on my ability to write lucidly and to convey complex thoughts in an understandable way. Perhaps if I go into each session with the idea that not only do I want to play very sound fundamental poker, but I also want to backup my own beliefs in the technical aspect my game so that I feel comfortable writing them down and sharing them with others, then I will feel satisfied even if the session does not go well financially. I do realize that many people reading this will think, "dude, you play 200NL, stfu about writing a book," but that was my initial goal and I think it would help to both motivate me and help to break down the psychological barriers I'm facing at the moment. As always, please be blunt in your responses, as I appreciate any criticism all you fellow players have to offer, especially from the more experienced player on this board, as I am sure this situation is something you have both seen and experienced before.

[mosquito]

There is no reason that you cannot write a book,
that is an admirable goal. I have considered writing
about Bridge, and have been encouraged to do so by
one of the leading authors on the subject (as well
as other experts). I am very good, but not at the
level that these people are, yet they feel (knowing
me and how I talk about the game) that writing would
be a good thing. There is no reason to think you
cannot, perhaps you might start with a piece for the
2+2 site? Just a rambling thought.

As far as your other goals and needs, you must also
keep in mind that the challenges you need to improve
may conflict with your need to derive income, at least
to some degree. Finding a way to minimize the conflict
will no doubt help you in the long run.

Perhaps setting aside 1 or more sessions per week for
a 'tougher' game. Do more thinking away from the table.
Spend time sweating someone you respect in a tougher
game. Getting lessons is another possibilty.

There is certainly more than that to think about, but
hopefully some of these things may help you think
about your problem.

mosquito

[JobyWan]

I have a similar problem and play about the same level. I was very comfortable at the $200 level until I played sick one day and dropped a grand. Even though I've heard a million pros say they've gone bust over and over when starting out, I never considered myself comfortable with losing larger sums..not that anyone is, but basically this took the wind out of my sails. I took a couple weeks off to recharge the mojo, get intellectual with the game and start 'earning' my way back up via $50 buy in games. Along the way I decided to be very careful with my money. A couple of things I started thinking about: I set a goal of $25 an hour which is decent at $50 buy in no limit and still presents a challenge. I then figured that I could make that by picking up little $2-4 pots every 10 minutes or so and throw in an $8-10 pot at some point throughout the hour. Now I'm grinding out $25 an hour using my skill, but taking little risk and any big trapping pots are just a bonus..and those come once every hour or two. Grinding isn't fun, but it gets especially annoying when you piss away $50 and have to blow 2 hours grinding it back. That's my punishment for making loose/stupid calls. So essentially, it's an ego thing. Ego trumps discipline and so I re-focused my ego to reward myself for a 'detached' sort of attitude that I don't need to beat you every hand, because in the end I'll get your money. This non-chalant attitude has several benefits for people whose ego trumps their discipline - 1) You keep your essential clarity, instead of feeling the pressure after losing and then pressing. 2) you limit big losses. It's kind of like the stock market..many great traders set an absolute loss floor of say 5%. That means no matter what they feel about a stock, if it goes down 5%, they cut their losses and sell. Now if you know you'll never lose more than 5% in a stock, you just have to trust that you'll make 5% (or more) more often than you'll lose it to be a successful trader. I use that same philosophy on-line. It probably wouldn't work against a table full of live pros, but amongst the hordes of net players, it's been working fine. It's basically the long way around to getting yourself to understand that it's ok to lay down the best hand sometimes. Especially if you can't differentiate between a good read and an ego read. The right and 'almost guaranteed' winner is right the corner..why buy day old bread when fresh bread is coming out of the oven in a minute.

On a pragmatic level, when you have a moment of sharp realization and make a 'mature, disciplined' lay down - creat some sort of cue that can help get you back there. I wrote 'LASER' on a piece of paper and sat it next to my monitor. To me, this means play like a laser..sharp, decisive, ego-free decisions that cut through the fog.

Good Luck,
JobyWan

[mosquito]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a similar problem and play about the same level. I was very comfortable at the $200 level until I played sick one day and dropped a grand. Even though I've heard a million pros say they've gone bust over and over when starting out, I never considered myself comfortable with losing larger sums..not that anyone is, but basically this took the wind out of my sails. I took a couple weeks off to recharge the mojo, get intellectual with the game and start 'earning' my way back up via $50 buy in games. Along the way I decided to be very careful with my money. A couple of things I started thinking about: I set a goal of $25 an hour which is decent at $50 buy in no limit and still presents a challenge. I then figured that I could make that by picking up little $2-4 pots every 10 minutes or so and throw in an $8-10 pot at some point throughout the hour. Now I'm grinding out $25 an hour using my skill, but taking little risk and any big trapping pots are just a bonus..and those come once every hour or two. Grinding isn't fun, but it gets especially annoying when you piss away $50 and have to blow 2 hours grinding it back. That's my punishment for making loose/stupid calls. So essentially, it's an ego thing. Ego trumps discipline and so I re-focused my ego to reward myself for a 'detached' sort of attitude that I don't need to beat you every hand, because in the end I'll get your money. This non-chalant attitude has several benefits for people whose ego trumps their discipline - 1) You keep your essential clarity, instead of feeling the pressure after losing and then pressing. 2) you limit big losses. It's kind of like the stock market..many great traders set an absolute loss floor of say 5%. That means no matter what they feel about a stock, if it goes down 5%, they cut their losses and sell. Now if you know you'll never lose more than 5% in a stock, you just have to trust that you'll make 5% (or more) more often than you'll lose it to be a successful trader. I use that same philosophy on-line. It probably wouldn't work against a table full of live pros, but amongst the hordes of net players, it's been working fine. It's basically the long way around to getting yourself to understand that it's ok to lay down the best hand sometimes. Especially if you can't differentiate between a good read and an ego read. The right and 'almost guaranteed' winner is right the corner..why buy day old bread when fresh bread is coming out of the oven in a minute.

On a pragmatic level, when you have a moment of sharp realization and make a 'mature, disciplined' lay down - creat some sort of cue that can help get you back there. I wrote 'LASER' on a piece of paper and sat it next to my monitor. To me, this means play like a laser..sharp, decisive, ego-free decisions that cut through the fog.

Good Luck,
JobyWan

[/ QUOTE ]

You make some important points.

1. Rational detachment (the term I have used for myself)
to keep yourself level and sane, playing good poker.

2. Focused plan for bankroll and goals.

3. Risk averse play to avoid major swings. Not pushing
what looks to be a very small edge on a large amount of
money. Not many can handle these well, I think. Too is
the problem of accurately estimating these edges. At
limit it won't make too much difference making an occasional
mistake putting money into the pot with -EV. At NL this
can be a major leak.

Nice post.

mosquito

[MuckerFish]

Couple of issues I can see from your post that may help. As mentioned before by another poster you need to determine your goals for playing. By your post I can infer an apparent conflict that may be causing you some trouble. You play for a living which requires a certain monhly win to survive, but you also would like to play a higher limit against better competition. This is a conflict of your financial needs and your personal needs/competitive nature (Playing against better players may be more personally fufilling, but may cause you to lose some serious cash and not make your monthly nut). Being 'forced' to play at the lower limits to make your nut rather than being at the higher tables 'where you belong' is apparently causing you trouble. I'm sure you recognize that game selection is paramount to success in poker, after all, you could be the tenth best player in the world, but if you're at a table against the other nine, you're the fish. Keep your apparent conflict in mind and maybe do something that helps fufill both your needs. Play the lower limits where you're the favorite for 'work', and build a side bankroll for yourself to take a shot at some of the higher limits for 'play'. This will probably help satisfy both your fiscal and personal needs for playing. Just remeber that even a donk at the lower levels can have you beat, outdraw you, etc. Be confident in your reads, let go of those hands you were talking about and plug that leak.
(Just out of curiosity, why do you think you'd be able to let go of these type hands easier at the higher limits, is it because you feel you'd trust your read more against a 'better' player? If so you need to remeber that hand reading gets harder at the higher limits, and not easier, as the other players are not as straight forward. Likewise if you 'let go' easily at the higher limits, the other players are more likely to pick this up and push you around.)
Try not to be so concerned with picking off bluffs, all good players getted bluffed, only the calling stations never get bluffed. No Biggy.
Try not to get as frustrated when a worse player beats you. Even if you made absolutely nothing but +EV moves, sometimes you are going to lose that individual bet. It is in the long run that the move is +EV, that's not a guarantee of a win in an individual circumstance. Bad players get lucky, the best players can lose, all part of the game.
LIke I said, play the donks for your bread and butter. Set aside some extra for some shots against the big boys. Over time hopefully you move up to the next level for your daily grind and soon enough you may have to post a 'how do I break the 50/100 Heads Up Hump against Spirit Rock' type of post.
Good Luck!

[sexdrugsmoney]

Hi Aytumious,

I'm fairly new to playing online poker as a source of income (only have circa 3000 hands to date) and have been playing poker overall for a couple of months off a year.

The game I was first introduced to was PL Hold'em and truth be told, only in the last couple of months have I started playing Limit Hold'em.

I think my intro to PL HE as a newbie gave me a solid foundation and good instincts, as unlike limit, after the flop you can lose all your chips on a hand. (as you would know playing NL)

My problem in Limit online is 'crying calls" at the SD like you, especially on Party at lower limits because I don't want to feel some sucker is making a move on me.

I think Sam Farha said it best in the 2004 main event, he was in a hand against an unknown guy who was betting into him and Sam only had a pair of sixes. Sam said "You know you have to show the best hand?" and the 'random' guy caught an 8 on the river to make his pair and beat Farha. (if memory serves correct, it went like this)

I think Sam and you are in the same boat, obviously you don't respect your opponents and don't want a 'move' made on you by them.

I agree, and I'm the same.

If I was playing PL or NL for higher stakes or in real life, I'd be able to make laydowns easier and know I made a "good fold", but at low limits online, I have to see ... I have to see what this idiot has.

I don't have the answer for you, your experience exceeds mine twentyfold, however perhaps if you calculate exactly how much you are losing to 'crying calls' on average you may find it more worthwhile to perhaps play a bigger NL game either in real life or at another site (like Pokerstars) where you'd respect your opponents more and could say "I made a great laydown today against Phil Hellmuth" (That's if you play the big Limit game at UB with him and Thunder Keller - for illustrative purposes only)

I hope some of this was of help.