GSIH: Starting hand charts a little ...academic?

[Zim]

Hi guys,

Decided to grind away at Limit Holdem, so I read GSIH by Ed.

Really enjoyed the book, and I've been fortunate to have a good start. Playing the $1/$2 tables, the cards have been kind. Much different dynamic than NL, its a relaxing change.

Nonetheless, many of my tables I play on are exceedingly tight (yes, I know ... find better tables. However, the good bonuses require I play a sub-obtimal games). In fact, flop percentages in the mid 20's ... low 30's are not uncommon, even at my level (Prima network).

Yet I'll still come across some hyper aggressives attempting to steal the pots. Many times I'll have a tight table with one LAG in any given pot.

Here's my problem:

I recognize that the starting hand charts are designed for a wide range of circumstances ... but even so, it's apparent (even to this limit newbie) that different people require different strategies.

Isn't drawing distinctions based on position somewhat insignificant? I was caught somewhere between mid and late position the other day wondering if I could call with Q9s (I believe the cutoff is QTs for mid) ... and it seemed rather inconsequential.

Who was I facing? Q2s might be sufficient against a maniac ... AT might be folded against a rock. Given the range of people and personailities, I don't see the need to distinquish between many hands BASED on position.

So I guess my question:

I think the tight/loose game distinction (while valid) is not as clear cut as it is made out to be. In my games, on any given hand I'll be facing a LAG or a tight player. One or the other, sometimes both. Can anyone point me to a site or online resource that based your poker play on the people you are playing against?

I believe Abdul had some essays that addressed this, any further info would be appreciated.

I'll also be happy to hear any guidelines. I'm a little surprised that more beginners books/articles don't stress who you are playing against over theoretical +EV hands from a given position.

Anyway, sorry for the length, I'll try to be more brief in future posts.

Cheers,
Zim

(Ps And once again, I found Ed's book to be excellent. It is responsible (in part) to my good fortune as of late at the tables.)

[AKQJ10]

Short answer: your critique is valid for any starting hands chart, or indeed any poker book. That's why people don't just pick up a book and start beating the biggest games around -- experience is always helpful to add to theoretical knowledge.

Starting Hand Charts are guides - they are not meant to be taken as gospel.

Miller even says that the difference between one starting hand that they recommend and one they don't is often so marginal that you could play either way and it would make little difference overall.

As such, the difference between QTs and Q9s is actually very small and so you do not make a major error if you call Q9s or fold QTs.

What is more important is to remember that NEITHER of these holdings is particularly strong. There is a good chance that you are going to need a flush, straight or trips to win.

[SheridanCat]

As AK... and Hank pointed out, there are problems with following starting hand charts religiously. However, everyone does it at first (those who know about them anyway). The trick is to stop using them as soon as you get a feel for what hands work in which game conditions.

Also, it's really, really important to note that how you play a hand preflop isn't nearly as important as how you play the hand after the flop has come down. You may lose a bet preflop when you play a hand you shouldn't, but you can lose many bets if you continue to misplay the hand after the flop. Same goes for hands that you played properly preflop and then misplay postflop.

Regards,

T

[Hoss1193]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a little surprised that more beginners books/articles don't stress who you are playing against over theoretical +EV hands from a given position.


[/ QUOTE ]

Key word in that statement is "beginner".

From my perspective, the whole point of starting hand charts is to help the beginner build a solid foundation from which to develop. Your point about playing a particular way against a particular player type is wholly valid...and many books do go into some detail on playing based on the table characteristics and/or individual players (e.g., SSHE).

By the time you're able to reliably read those tendencies in other players, however, you're not exactly a complete beginner any more, are you? Until you reach that point, the charts help you build a solid game, and keep you from getting into TOO much trouble as you build experience.

Just my $0.02.