Buzz's excellent post for newbies ...

Zim · #1 08-14-2005, 01:35 AM

I burned out a little on Holdem, so thought I'd look into limit O8

I came across this post from Buzz, and it really helped out. I'm amazed at how simple it is to more than hold your own at this game (at the lower limits, at least).

Thanks, Buzz. Any further suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
Zim
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Buzz's Omaha post

Here is Buzz's excellent original post for an Omaha 8 beginner - see message below:

Read, re-read and re-re-read Ray Zee's book and you won't go far wrong. However, it is not a complete guide. In particular it does not list what starting hands you should play, nor does it have a point count system. You also need to think a lot about what you read - the book does not go step by step. It is mostly arranged by separate topics.

There is also quite a useful essay by Barry Shulman on the Card Player website called something like "A simple guide to beating most omaha 8 or better games". And basic odds are given in an essay by David Sklansky in the Essays section of this site.

One of the things that has been written about O/8 in low limit games is that as long as you play tighter than everyone else before the flop, and at least rationally afterwards, you will win. And I think it is true. So I would suggest that you take the following very tight and simple approach as your starting guide for the moment. You can loosen up as you learn. You can also loosen up a little bit in later position. You will note that given the following you will play very few hands and it will be very boring. That is the way this game is. But you will usually be in good shape in the pots you do play.

1. Only play big cards (T or above) or small cards (up to a 5 or 6). Do not play hands with middling cards. Thus A246, A345, KQJT, AKQJ, KQQJ, AK23 can be played but 6789, A489, A779, even A289 cannot. Three big cards or three small cards can stand one middling card, sometimes. E.g. A248, AKQ9.

2. Generally, for the low you should only enter the pot with A2 and another low card. In later position you can play A3 or 23 with another low card, but you really need a 2 or an A (respectively) on the flop to carry on (see below). This requirement is cumulative to point 1: DO NOT regard e.g. 3456 as "four small cards" and therefore playable.

3. Fold on the flop unless you have the nut low, a good draw to the nut low, the nut high, or a good draw to the nut high. E.g. you have A267 and the flop is 45K, or you have KQJT and the flop is 29T (both good draws), or you have A2KQ and the flop is 378, or you have KQJT and the flop is 789 (both nut hands one way). But if you were in with AK36 and the flop was 478, fold of there is betting: your low draw is not to the nuts unless a 2 comes. You can break this last rule with extreme discretion in very late position.

4. Scooping is great when it happens, but if there are lots of players in every pot who not drawing to the nuts (there usually are in low limit), getting half will be profitable anyway. So just bet your hand and be extra happy if you scoop. Most of your scoops will come when no low is possible, for obvious reasons.

5. Suited aces are big money winners in low limit O/8. But do not play them without a 2 or 3 or high cards. Suited A9, for example, is no reason on its own to play a hand.

6. Small pairs are generally bad news unless you have them with an A2 or A3, in which case they can be great. E.g. your hand is A255 and the flop is 35T: you have a nut low draw and a set for high (more about sets below). The 5 on the flop helps you both ways.

7. Big pairs (QQ, KK, AA) can also be good, but are not a reason in themselves to play. Your other cards must still be good. I would advise you to forget all other "big" pairs: JJ, TT, 99 (especially the last).

8. If you have one of the above starting hands, I would advocate betting or raising with it before the flop, and if you get a flop which meets point 3 above, I would bet or raise again, most definitely if there are four or more people in the pot. Lots of people could disagree with this advice for reasons which have a good deal of merit against sophisticated opponents. Against weak opponents who probably will just call and get no useful information from your bet, I would just bet/raise, though. It is simple and easy to remember and execute. Also, this will give you a generally good image.

9. Keep betting on 4th street if you have the nuts. Check/call if you still have a draw to the nuts. This is grossly oversimplified advice, but you will not go too far wrong with it. Additionally, if you are just drawing to half a small pot, fold.

10. On 5th street, keep betting if you have the nuts. If you do not have the nuts, consider calling one bet if you have a hand which is nearly the nuts and it does not look like there will be a raising war.

11. You will hear a lot about getting quartered. It is not necessarily the end of the world. If you get quartered in a five-way pot, you still make a (small)profit! In a four way pot, you break even, in a three way pot you lose (a bit). So do not spend too much time worrying about it.

12. Since you asked: sets. Because you are only going to play QQ and upwards of the "big" pairs, you will usually flop top set if you flop a set at all (I also recommended small pairs with an A2 or A3 above, but you will play those hands primarily for low, with the small set as a bonus for high if it stands up). If you flop second "big" set and there is betting, there is nothing too wrong with folding. Let's assume you only play top set, and let's assume the board is not paired (since if it is, there is not too much to worry about). Then, much depends on the rest of the flop. If there is only one low card or no low cards you have a great chance to scoop and I would suggest just hammering away. Provided there are a few people in, you have great odds to draw at a full house. If you have not filled up by the river and there is still betting, you should usually fold unless you detect that the betting is being driven by the low hands and there is no made high. This, I am afraid, takes skill to determine. If there are two low cards on the flop, you should be much more cautious. You likely will only get half, and the two low cards always tend to look dangerous if a third comes. E.g. 34 on the flop and a 6 comes: two different straights are possible. I would suggest that with two low cards on the flop you just call along unless there are a lot of players, or until you fill up. I promise you that big sets are profitable in the long run, but I acknowledge that they can be maddening in the short term!

Good luck, and happy grinding!

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(ps I never did find the Shulman article, but that's OK)

Doc7 · #2 08-14-2005, 01:55 AM

Ha, I read your last line about 10 minutes after I stopped trying to find the article on Cardplayer : )

Thanks for this info (Is it lame to be trying to win money in L08 in order to get to the bankroll i want to stab the next LHE level? probably.)

TGoldman · #3 08-14-2005, 12:59 PM

I think if I were to ever create a bot for online poker, it would be a bot that plays low limit Omaha/8.

Buzz · #4 08-14-2005, 08:09 PM

Zim - Been a while since I wrote that. I can't remember the circumstances, but I probably was answering someone's question. Anyhow, whatever. I've made a few revisions below.

Buzz

[ QUOTE ]
One of the things that has been written about O/8 in low limit games is that as long as you play tighter than everyone else before the flop, and at least rationally afterwards, you will win. And I think it is true. So I would suggest that you take the following very tight and simple approach as your starting guide for the moment. You can loosen up as you learn. You can also loosen up a little bit in later position. You will note that given the following you will play very few hands and it will be very boring. That is the way this game is.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least the game seems boring to me when I play like a rock. However, in general, I don't play like a rock and in any event, the game isn't boring to me. But I think unless you're in a tournament or simultaneously playing in four on-line games, folding, folding, folding, folding, folding, folding, folding, folding, and then pouncing seems more like work than recreation - and as jobs go, I think I'd rather be working the counter at MacDonalds. And I certainly don't think that's the optimal way to play in a normal casino ring game. But it is a very safe way to play and allows for much observing while you're learning about how your opponents play. And every good player should at least be able to successfully play like a rock. And I still think it's the place to start..

[ QUOTE ]
But you will usually be in good shape in the pots you do play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you learn to play like a rock, you can always return to that very safe style when needed. I do think there are more optimal playing styles, but it cannot be bad advice to at least learn to play like a rock when you start.

[ QUOTE ]
1. Only play big cards (T or above) or small cards (up to a 5 or 6). Do not play hands with middling cards. Thus A246, A345, KQJT, AKQJ, KQQJ, AK23 can be played but 6789, A489, A779, even A289 cannot. Three big cards or three small cards can stand one middling card, sometimes. E.g. A248, AKQ9.

[/ QUOTE ]

 My thinking on this topic has changed a bit.
1a. It’s still good advice to avoid playing starting hands with “middling” cards. I now call these cards middle cards and think of them as sixes, sevens, eights, and nines. In general, all these cards detract from the value of a starting hand, some more than others.
1b. Suitedness is very important. I’d advise beginners to avoid playing “rainbow” (also called non-suited) hands where you have one card of each suit. There are (obviously) some starting hands you’ll play, even if non-suited - but almost all of these involve
• an ace plus a deuce, hopefully with another wheel card as backup,
• an ace plus a trey and four,
• an ace plus a trey and five,
• a pair of aces plus a trey
• a pair of aces plus a couple of wheel cards
• high only hands with two pairs of honors. (Aside from aces, which belong in a category all their own, honors are kings, queens, jacks, and tens). Obviously the higher the pairs the better the hand, but there doesn’t seem to be much of a gap between the best of these hands, QQKKn and the worst, TTJJn. Here’s the sims data:
hand.....high....low...scoop....total
QQKKn.....407.....0....1125.....1532
TTJJn.....455.....0.....967.....1422
For contrast, here’s the sims data for KQJTn and AKQJn:
hand.....high....low...scoop....total
TJQKn.....409.....0.....721.....1131
AJQKn.....352.....0.....745.....1097
If you make the various hands suited (two in suit, suited to the highest card) or double suited (to the highest two cards) here’s what happens:
hand.....high....low...scoop....total
QQKKd.....681.....0....1182.....1863
QQKKs.....555.....0....1119.....1674
TTJJd.....639.....0....1031.....1670
TTJJs.....561.....0.....992.....1553
AJQKd.....662.....0.....876.....1538
TJQKd.....650.....0.....878.....1528
TJQKs.....550.....0.....788.....1338
AJQKs.....524.....0.....807.....1331
If you’re just starting, you probably do better to stick to hands on the above list with scoop totals above 800. And that means I no longer recommend beginners play some high only hands I formerly recommended. 

[ QUOTE ]
2. Generally, for the low you should only enter the pot with A2 and another low card. In later position you can play A3 or 23 with another low card, but you really need a 2 or an A (respectively) on the flop to carry on (see below). This requirement is cumulative to point 1: DO NOT regard e.g. 3456 as "four small cards" and therefore playable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of obliquely worded, but all right. Here’s some sims data for 2345n and 3456n:
hand.....high....low...scoop....total
2345n.....185..1145.....340.....1670
3456n.....290...590.....292.....1172
2345n is not all that great a hand, mainly only good for the low half, with a low scoop potential. There’s nobody who won’t be playing those starting cards - but you really do need to see an ace on the flop (or flop quads or a full house) when you do play them.
3456n is quite a step down from 2345n. 

[ QUOTE ]
3. Fold on the flop unless you have the nut low, a good draw to the nut low, the nut high, or a good draw to the nut high. E.g. you have A267 and the flop is 45K, or you have KQJT and the flop is 29T (both good draws), or you have A2KQ and the flop is 378, or you have KQJT and the flop is 789 (both nut hands one way). But if you were in with AK36 and the flop was 478, fold of there is betting: your low draw is not to the nuts unless a 2 comes. You can break this last rule with extreme discretion in very late position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still a good rule for beginners. the biggest mistake players make, even more so than playing too many hands, is chasing. If you’re only playing the nuts or drawing to the nuts after the flop, you’re not chasing.

[ QUOTE ]
4. Scooping is great when it happens, but if there are lots of players in every pot who not drawing to the nuts (there usually are in low limit), getting half will be profitable anyway. So just bet your hand and be extra happy if you scoop. Most of your scoops will come when no low is possible, for obvious reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

 My feeling about scooping is perhaps a bit different than when I originally wrote this material. I think you want to play starting hands that have a good chance to scoop, and you want to play your hands so as to increase your chances to scoop. I realize that’s vague. For example, when you have a good high hand but a mediocre low hand, you can often push the betting in such a way as to get low hands the same or even a bit better than yours to fold. And roughly the same goes for low.

[ QUOTE ]
5. Suited aces are big money winners in low limit O/8. But do not play them without a 2 or 3 or high cards. Suited A9, for example, is no reason on its own to play a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

All right. You need to consider all four of the cards in your hand. With the singular exception of ace-deuce, almost all hands of which are playable, no two card combination alone is reason enough to see the flop with a hand. A-3-X-Y requires something from X-Y. A-A-X-Y requires something from X-Y. 

[ QUOTE ]
6. Small pairs are generally bad news unless you have them with an A2 or A3, in which case they can be great. E.g. your hand is A255 and the flop is 35T: you have a nut low draw and a set for high (more about sets below). The 5 on the flop helps you both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Small pairs will often have you ending up with what I call an “underboat” - and an underboat often turns out to be a losing full house in Omaha-8. 

[ QUOTE ]
7. Big pairs (QQ, KK, AA) can also be good, but are not a reason in themselves to play. Your other cards must still be good. I would advise you to forget all other "big" pairs: JJ, TT, 99 (especially the last).

[/ QUOTE ]

 All right. Here’s the data for the whole series of non-suited pairs with a deuce and a trey:
hand.....high....low...scoop....total
23KKn.....175...629.....727.....1531
23QQn.....159...664.....649.....1472
23JJn.....166...659.....541.....1366
23TTn.....130...637.....530.....1297
2399n.....137...652.....486.....1275
2388n.....219...528.....275.....1022
2377n.....223...550.....299.....1072
2366n.....234...692.....306.....1232
2355n.....210...871.....373.....1454
2344n.....171..1095.....356.....1622
2334n.....158..1129.....351.....1638
2234n.....187..1142.....330.....1659
AA23n.....271..1681.....672.....2624
You can see how big pairs drop in value. (Then the small pairs seem to go up in value, but that’s mainly because there’s less of a chance of getting quartered or sixthed when you make low, rather than on the value of the small pair, per se. (There’s also a lesser chance of getting counterfeited on the river for low).

[ QUOTE ]
8. If you have one of the above starting hands, I would advocate betting or raising with it before the flop, and if you get a flop which meets point 3 above, I would bet or raise again, most definitely if there are four or more people in the pot. Lots of people could disagree with this advice for reasons which have a good deal of merit against sophisticated opponents. Against weak opponents who probably will just call and get no useful information from your bet, I would just bet/raise, though. It is simple and easy to remember and execute. Also, this will give you a generally good image.

[/ QUOTE ]

 My opinion regarding pre-flop raising has evidently changed considerably since writing this post. My own default mode is to usually limp with most starting hands before the flop unless I want to intimidate an opponent (or opponents) and it seems reasonably possible and feasible to do that.
I think whether or not you raise before the flop is a matter of playing style. Some very fine Omaha-8 players raise more often than not when they decide to play a hand. Whatever you do, I advise you to at least consider the effect the raise might have on your opponents.

[ QUOTE ]
9. Keep betting on 4th street if you have the nuts. Check/call if you still have a draw to the nuts. This is grossly oversimplified advice, but you will not go too far wrong with it. Additionally, if you are just drawing to half a small pot, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

 All right. As stated, grossly oversimplified advice.

[ QUOTE ]
10. On 5th street, keep betting if you have the nuts. If you do not have the nuts, consider calling one bet if you have a hand which is nearly the nuts and it does not look like there will be a raising war.

[/ QUOTE ]

All right except maybe too simplistic. The frequency of winning with non-nut hands is different for different types of hands - and is also different against different groups of opponents. 
[ QUOTE ]
11. You will hear a lot about getting quartered. It is not necessarily the end of the world. If you get quartered in a five-way pot, you still make a (small)profit! In a four way pot, you break even, in a three way pot you lose (a bit). So do not spend too much time worrying about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. 

[ QUOTE ]
12. Since you asked: sets. Because you are only going to play QQ and upwards of the "big" pairs, you will usually flop top set if you flop a set at all (I also recommended small pairs with an A2 or A3 above, but you will play those hands primarily for low, with the small set as a bonus for high if it stands up). If you flop second "big" set and there is betting, there is nothing too wrong with folding. Let's assume you only play top set, and let's assume the board is not paired (since if it is, there is not too much to worry about). Then, much depends on the rest of the flop. If there is only one low card or no low cards you have a great chance to scoop and I would suggest just hammering away. Provided there are a few people in, you have great odds to draw at a full house. If you have not filled up by the river and there is still betting, you should usually fold unless you detect that the betting is being driven by the low hands and there is no made high. This, I am afraid, takes skill to determine. If there are two low cards on the flop, you should be much more cautious. You likely will only get half, and the two low cards always tend to look dangerous if a third comes. E.g. 34 on the flop and a 6 comes: two different straights are possible. I would suggest that with two low cards on the flop you just call along unless there are a lot of players, or until you fill up. I promise you that big sets are profitable in the long run, but I acknowledge that they can be maddening in the short term!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t recall what that was all about. Evidently someone asked a question and I responded - but I don’t remember what the question was.
How to play flopped sets depends very much on your opponents and on the other cards involved, both on the board and in your own hand. When the board is not paired, the board cards will usually such that either a straight or a flush (or both) is possible. But your set, even though not the nuts, may be the winner. It’s not always easy to tell when it is and when it isn’t. For one bet, you can generally afford to call - but you want to try to avoid getting caught in the middle between someone raising with the nut high and someone raising with the nut low or raising with another nut high. 

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Zim · #5 08-15-2005, 12:03 AM

Wow!

I'm certain I speak for the masses of silent LO8 noobs when I say ...

THANK-YOU!

(You have become my official LO8 guru)

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I have a few questions, but you've been more than kind with your time ... so I'll go play a few hundred rounds with the info you've provided, and pop back in again.

Thanks again.

Best,
Zim

PS:

"...or simultaneously playing in four on-line games, folding, folding, folding, folding, folding, folding, folding, folding, and then pouncing seems more like work than recreation - and as jobs go, I think I'd rather be working the counter at MacDonalds."

I had to laugh at this.

I was multi-tabling 8-10 games in NL using a very abbreviated strategy, folding virtually everything but pocket pairs. When I told a friend, an old B&M poker enthusiast, about my revolutionary play strategy, his response:

"I think I'd rather fold grocery bags at the Supermarket"

(On this note, if you'd like to give further suggestions for ultra-tight rock play ... I'm all ears. However, I'm led to believe that starting hands in LO8 do not carry the same weight as they do in HE.)

Doc7 · #6 08-15-2005, 02:28 AM

i'm playing ultra tight, and the thing I find "fun" about this is bankroll building. I don't want to deposit money I earned from my job in here, so it's nice to have seen my $30 deposit turn into 70 bucks so far (only a few of which are from O8 as of now) from doing nothing more than clicking a couple buttons on a screen instead of watching stupid television shows (and only when my friends aren't doing something fun)
its 2:30 AM, i'm clicking buttons and getting money. it might get boring some day but as long as theres a higher limit that I'm working towards getting bankrolled for ($2+0 MTTs, 5+.50 SNGs, .25/.50 LHE and .25/.50 LO8 are my current bankroll goals at the moment) i'm having fun climbing the ladder.

Luckless57 · #7 08-15-2005, 04:15 AM

At least the game seems boring to me when I play like a rock. However, in general, I don't play like a rock and in any event, the game isn't boring to me. But I think unless you're in a tournament or simultaneously playing in four on-line games, folding, folding, folding, folding, folding, folding, folding, folding, and then pouncing seems more like work than recreation - and as jobs go, I think I'd rather be working the counter at MacDonalds. And I certainly don't think that's the optimal way to play in a normal casino ring game. But it is a very safe way to play and allows for much observing while you're learning about how your opponents play. And every good player should at least be able to successfully play like a rock. And I still think it's the place to start..

 The game does become incredibly boring when you play only the premium hands and I’ve found myself moving away from that playing style by trying to open my game up by playing more hands when I’m in late position. The thing with playing ultra tight is it’s not really that profitable online anymore. Without any statistical data to back it up it appears to me that games (even at the lower limits) have tightened up dramtically (at least on the sites I play on). Omaha/8 becomes a very tricky game when pots are played with 3 or less players preflop, it’s an adjustment that I’m finally starting to turn the corner on, but I’m not completely comfortable at it.

My thinking on this topic has changed a bit.
1a. It’s still good advice to avoid playing starting hands with “middling” cards. I now call these cards middle cards and think of them as sixes, sevens, eights, and nines. In general, all these cards detract from the value of a starting hand, some more than others.
1b. Suitedness is very important. I’d advise beginners to avoid playing “rainbow” (also called non-suited) hands where you have one card of each suit. There are (obviously) some starting hands you’ll play, even if non-suited - but almost all of these involve
• an ace plus a deuce, hopefully with another wheel card as backup,
• an ace plus a trey and four,
• an ace plus a trey and five,
• a pair of aces plus a trey
• a pair of aces plus a couple of wheel cards
• high only hands with two pairs of honors. (Aside from aces, which belong in a category all their own, honors are kings, queens, jacks, and tens). Obviously the higher the pairs the better the hand, but there doesn’t seem to be much of a gap between the best of these hands, QQKKn and the worst, TTJJn. Here’s the sims data:
hand.....high....low...scoop....total
QQKKn.....407.....0....1125.....1532
TTJJn.....455.....0.....967.....1422
For contrast, here’s the sims data for KQJTn and AKQJn:
hand.....high....low...scoop....total
TJQKn.....409.....0.....721.....1131
AJQKn.....352.....0.....745.....1097
If you make the various hands suited (two in suit, suited to the highest card) or double suited (to the highest two cards) here’s what happens:
hand.....high....low...scoop....total
QQKKd.....681.....0....1182.....1863
QQKKs.....555.....0....1119.....1674
TTJJd.....639.....0....1031.....1670
TTJJs.....561.....0.....992.....1553
AJQKd.....662.....0.....876.....1538
TJQKd.....650.....0.....878.....1528
TJQKs.....550.....0.....788.....1338
AJQKs.....524.....0.....807.....1331
If you’re just starting, you probably do better to stick to hands on the above list with scoop totals above 800. And that means I no longer recommend beginners play some high only hands I formerly recommended.

A few comments I’d like to add to this. Don’t you think the statistics on hands such as KKQQ JJTT etc are a bit misleading? I believe a lot of their high wins are due to paired board situations where no one has trips or a full house. In these situations you commonly have someone with a good low draw, combined with a flush or straight draw betting the flop hard. These are situations where it’s almost impossible to make the call, yet in the end you would either scoop or take the high half. Also in rare cases you can win with just top pair, those cases are rare and you wouldn’t find anyone making it to the river with that type of hand unless it was checked down.


Kind of obliquely worded, but all right. Here’s some sims data for 2345n and 3456n:
hand.....high....low...scoop....total
2345n.....185..1145.....340.....1670
3456n.....290...590.....292.....1172
2345n is not all that great a hand, mainly only good for the low half, with a low scoop potential. There’s nobody who won’t be playing those starting cards - but you really do need to see an ace on the flop (or flop quads or a full house) when you do play them.
3456n is quite a step down from 2345n.


I’ve always wanted to see more statistical data on 2345. It always seems like a good hand, but as you’ve pointed out it’s not that great unless an ace hits the flop. Once an ace hits the flop it’s a hand you can get yourself in a situation where the hand can make you a lot of money and it’s a hand that’s very easy to fold after the flop.


My opinion regarding pre-flop raising has evidently changed considerably since writing this post. My own default mode is to usually limp with most starting hands before the flop unless I want to intimidate an opponent (or opponents) and it seems reasonably possible and feasible to do that.
I think whether or not you raise before the flop is a matter of playing style. Some very fine Omaha-8 players raise more often than not when they decide to play a hand. Whatever you do, I advise you to at least consider the effect the raise might have on your opponents.

That’s another topic that I always question myself on, my passiveness. Like you I also limp in for the most part. I very rarely will raise in Omaha/8. I raise only in situations where it’s been folded to me when I’m near the button with a solid hand, or there’s a lot of callers preflop and I have a hand like A23x where I’m trying to build a big pot for low. Just wondering if people think limping almost always is a bad move.

Just wrote a general response, because I get frustrated with Omaha/8. Although I’m a winning player I feel like I have the ability to win much more in this game and any suggestions to possible adjustments in the way I think about or play the game are appreciated.

Sean D · #8 08-15-2005, 04:17 AM

Buzz has always been a great help, and all of his posts are well thought out. It is great to have someone as knowledgable as him in our community. I don't know his background, but I would guess he is a great player and makes quite a bit playing o8. As long as some of his posts are (not a particularly bad thing), I would think he could have a few books compiled of his thoughts on the game. I'd be willing to buy.

Buzz · #9 08-15-2005, 07:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Don’t you think the statistics on hands such as KKQQ JJTT etc are a bit misleading?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Luckless - Yes. They are a bit misleading. But they do give you an idea of the relative value of hands. (And for me they serve various other purposes as well).

[ QUOTE ]
I believe a lot of their high wins are due to paired board situations where no one has trips or a full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the game, in my humble opinion. That's truer in tighter games than in looser games, and truer if when you make a move with one of these hands, your opponents, or some of them, will get out of your way.

Also depends on when the board pairs.

If the board pairs on the flop, and if five or more opponents have seen the flop, it's very likely that at least one of your opponents has a card the same rank as the pair.

In the simulations, not many wins are due to winning with two pairs. As you already noted (and I agree) the simulations are a bit unrealistic. Doesn't make them not worthwhile, in my humble opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
In these situations you commonly have someone with a good low draw, combined with a flush or straight draw betting the flop hard.

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I'll agree that's how it is sometimes. There are a lot of different kinds of hands you can have and a lot of different kinds of flops and boards you can encounter. There are also a lot of different kinds of opponent play you can encounter. Hard for me to generalize that broadly.

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These are situations where it’s almost impossible to make the call, yet in the end you would either scoop or take the high half.

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I'm not sure what we're talking about here. What to do depends on a number of factors, including your cards, the cards on the board, and your opponents. In general, I don't think it's a good idea to continue without a good flop fit. When I don't have a good flop fit it's not "almost impossible" for me to make the call - it's simply not a thing I'll generally do. Instead, I get off the hand. If my hand doesn't fit with the flop, I fold to a bet. Period. (One on one is a different matter).

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Also in rare cases you can win with just top pair, those cases are rare and you wouldn’t find anyone making it to the river with that type of hand unless it was checked down.

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Well... winning with just top pair is not exactly what I would call "rare." Sometimes there's very aggressive betting by low hands which induces players to fold mediocre high hands. For example, if somebody bets what I think is the nut low into me and I also have the nut low plus top pair, I might raise to try to knock out a better high hand. I'll only do that when I think it's feasible to knock out a better high hand than the one I hold - and it's pretty hard to raise without the nut low. Obviously the ploy backfires when the opponent you try to knock out doesn't fold. I don't try it when I think it has a poor chance or no chance at all of working. The chance of success of the ploy mainly depends on the tenacity and good sense of the opponent at whom it's directed.

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it appears to me that games (even at the lower limits) have tightened up dramtically (at least on the sites I play on).

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Interesting. I think it may be partly because more and more individuals are simultaneously playing four different tables.

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Omaha/8 becomes a very tricky game when pots are played with 3 or less players preflop

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Yikes. Those games tend to become very aggressive and consequently very stressful. I like a challenge, but there's too much stress for me in a game like that. Fun and exciting to do battle, but not good for my cardiovascular system. No thanks.

Buzz

Buzz · #10 08-15-2005, 07:36 AM

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the thing I find "fun" about this is bankroll building..... i'm having fun climbing the ladder.

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Hi Doc - Not my thing, but I can appreciate your motivation.

Buzz