Super Aggro Play...Throwing Away money or +EV?

Mercman572 · #1 06-15-2005, 03:23 PM

Here's the deal, villain is a somewhat tight, thinking player from my observation. My read is that he put me on a steal/continuation bet. His range of hands here is any pocket pair that didn't hit minus AA and KK, as well as possibly, but not likely, some overs. His WtSD% was about 27% so I figured I had some decent fold equity and that my overs were good when I pushed.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

UTG+1 ($31.05)
UTG+2 ($27.3)
MP1 ($32.2)
Hero ($27.85)
MP3 ($23.75)
CO ($14.75)
Button ($24.5)
SB ($25.25)
BB ($53.4)
UTG ($25.1)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.35. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.5, MP3 calls $1.50, 2 folds, SB (poster) calls $1.40, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.25, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.

Flop: ($7.10) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $4, MP3 raises to $10, SB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls $22.35 (All-In), MP3 calls $12.25 (All-In).

Turn: ($55.70) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($55.70) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $55.70

I actually put villain on a stronger holding than he had, he held 33. He said "I obviously didn't have anything," but I would make this play with any PP higher than the board, the continuation bet of 2/3 the pot bc of FD and I would likely push here with 1010-QQ to the reraise. Is it "obvious" i have nothing here? Was my range of hands no villain reasonable in most situations on this kind of player? Knowing his hole cards is this play a good one, or should I fold although I felt very strongly that he was on a resteal with a mediocre to weak holding (70% certain he did not hold an 7, or AA/KK)

Tim H · #2 06-15-2005, 03:42 PM

ask yourself ...
what was your standard raise? and what hands have you shown this Thinking Player with that raise.
what was the table "standard raise"?

fold to the reraise, you're a 60/40 dog to the low/mid PP's which you put him on.

Caballa · #3 06-15-2005, 03:47 PM

Your flop bet looks weak given how many people saw the flop. It works if you want people to put you on AK when you hold aces / kings, but not the other way around unless you're playing with people who have extensive experience of how you play high pocket pairs post flop.

Mercman572 · #4 06-15-2005, 03:48 PM

there was not a standard raise, and i find there rarely is at most tables i play. i adjust my raise to the vpip of the table. this table was pretty high, and i still got a bunch of callers. I had shown down VERY few hands to this player. I know I'm a dog but I put about a 40-50% chance of his folding with the push given my range of hands on him and felt that this more than made up for me being a dog. Situation was a push or fold for me because of this

Mercman572 · #5 06-15-2005, 03:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your flop bet looks weak given how many people saw the flop. It works if you want people to put you on AK when you hold aces / kings, but not the other way around unless you're playing with people who have extensive experience of how you play high pocket pairs post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

a 2/3 bet here was very strong for this table. the thinking player is not on the level of "he bet 2/3 the pot with this many limpers" he thought more along the lines of "he's bluffing." villain took it as "too strong" for some reason.

in villains position who calls the push? i put myself in his spot during the hand and i would probably fold the threes right away, but if i thought he was bluffing and capable of folding i'd raise the amount he did but fold to the push.

EDIT: Thanks for commenting so far, I appreciate it. I'm not discreditin any advice, I just want so in depth discussion because I find this situation very interesting. I still don't know what I think of my play, but I know I don't like villain's. Calling down when you beat ONLY a bluff can't be +EV Here's an example:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) converter

Button ($20.5)
SB ($34.25)
Hero ($23)
UTG ($17.7)
UTG+1 ($5.5)
MP1 ($26.27)
MP2 ($52.64)
MP3 ($43.15)
CO ($31.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.75, 2 folds, CO calls $0.75, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, MP1 calls $1.25, CO folds.

Flop: ($4.85) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $4, MP1 calls $4.

Turn: ($12.85) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $7, MP1 raises to $14, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $33.85

The only thing I beat there is a bluff. Villain is rated a fish after 50 hands. He shows AK

Reef · #6 06-15-2005, 04:20 PM

4 handed, you totally missed ... unless your opponents are weak I would check it. Villian probably has either pocket pair or 2 overcards with flush draw in which case you're drawing slim. The only AK I would do that play with is AcKc. Obviously the reraise will NOT make villian fold.

Mercman572 · #7 06-15-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
4 handed, you totally missed ... unless your opponents are weak I would check it. Villian probably has either pocket pair or 2 overcards with flush draw in which case you're drawing slim.

[/ QUOTE ]

the opponents were super weak, I felt I had a good chance of taking the pot down right there. They liked to limp/cold call and check/fold if unimproved, but would occasionally show down a bottom pair. Checking was a really close decision and definitely would have been the cheaper alternative. I really don't feel the player behind me would make that strong of a bet with any reasonable draw, especially overs with FD. An overcall would probably be more likely since one of the players may call as well, and the reraise gives me a chance to push the overpair costing him more to draw a flush

Spladle Master · #8 06-15-2005, 05:08 PM

Throwing away money.