Blind Defense Stop and Goes

[Nate tha' Great]

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I dont think it's an easy fold if you get popped on the turn. You start doing that [censored] versus me and I'll start popping you on almost every turn. And i'm not kidding. I'm sure many others would start noticing too. At least until you re-adjusted.

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Yeah, I'm calling down most of the time against an unknown blind stealer in this game. You'll not only encounter some total bluffs, but also some second-best hands like middle pair that are making some funky semibluff semislowplay, which seems to be in vogue lately.

[hockey1]

I don't get it. Sounds like everyone else thinks there's some merit to this line, so I'm probably off base. So please help. But here's how I see it.

PREFLOP: Nothing wrong with a call here. Or a raise or even a fold for that matter.

FLOP: Gold. Couldn't be a heck of a lot better, really. Ok, so how do we extract the max? Bet out! Great. I love it. CO could well think you're just taking a stab at a ragged flop and give you some action with his any 2 steal. Bingo! He raises. Ok. Maybe 3-bet? Nah, that'd allow him to call and fold on the turn unimproved. We want to extract more than 1 SB more out of this thing. Smoothcall. Nice. Now you're primed for the turn check-raise, which he could even call with just something like KQ or KJ. And if an A or Q flops, you can always slow down.

TURN: Ok, so here's where you lose me. You bet? Why? If I'm CO I fold my KJ or KQ or K9 or 75 that I was about to bluff bet with pretty quick when you make that bet. In fact, I'm not calling with much less than a flush draw given this ugly board. What else would he call with that you're ahead of here -- maybe middle pair? That's about it. So what you've done, it seems to me, is set up a situation where you extract the LEAST when you're ahead and stand to lose the most (if he raises the turn) if you're behind.

Like I said, though, very good posters seem to think this is not so bad, I'm just not sure why. Please explain.

[Eurotrash]

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ending a post with "i [action]" (fold, checkraise, anything) is most often a stick that in your pipe and smoke it kind of statement, especially so with "i bet". it implies the sassy, irreverent twist that they have put on poker, and it's supposed to be the part you talk about.

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not that i actually play mid/high, but I since I read it all the time, i have to say that you succinctly expressed my unbiased third party opinion on the posts that end with "I <action>". just a perfect analysis of it, really.

[rtrombone]

Nate and astro have hit it on the head. The big problem with the stop and go as opposed to check-raising the flop and leading the turn is the loss of the small bet those times your opponent folds on the turn. Most players simply aren't going to raise you on the turn with a worse hand, so you can discount the induce-a-bluff factor.

As far as I know, there are four situations in which the stop and go is a good play: (1) your pot equity on the flop is such that it's EV-neutral at best to continue jamming, rather than wait for a safe card on the turn; (2) you don't want to shut out people between you and a late-position raiser with a flop 3-bet, and you want to get at least one bet from them on the turn; (3) your opponent is capable of folding to a turn 3-bet if his hand is marginal/you think he's raising for a free showdown; (4) you think betting/3-betting the river will be more profitable than 3-betting the turn.

In response to turnipmonster's question, I don't see any benefit to betting the flop. You basically have position because the preflop raiser is going to auto-bet. Why sacrifice it? By betting, you let your opponent get away from a lot of hands he would've bet.

[ACPlayer]

Against an unknown player I generally like your line as it make's villian calling the turn with just overcards a bigger mistake as the pot is kept smaller by one big bet. However ...

If I am the villian in this case and I had semibluff raised the flop with over cards and read this manouever and I felt you knew how to lay down a hand look for a possible second semibluff raise on the turn to take the pot from you.

DS's TOP book - "defense against the semi-bluff" chapter suggests your line as one way to defend against the semi-bluff raise. If villian believes you are following that line, well you may well get raised again.

[ggbman]

Barry, since you figure to have the best hand here a large percentage of the time, i dont think this line is bad. However, hw could be raising this flpo with overs and 77-99, so the one advantage to 3 betting the flop is you get more info.

[fearme]

if u bet the turn and get raised it is not an easy fold w/ top pair, lets see a river