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  #1  
Old 12-22-2005, 06:50 AM
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Default Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???

Let me start off by saying that I appreciate that poker is a skillful game. I also appreciate that there's a LOT more to the game than meets the eye.

I also want to say (before anyone flames me) that I am NOT a winning player and make NO claim to be able to beat the game)

Despite the above statements, I am intrigued to know what aspects make poker so difficult?

The number of decisions to make is limited.
The maths involved should be within the grasp of a good proportion of the population.


My offerings to the debate are:
"Conceptualisation": The majority of people just cannot visualise the concept of where the money comes from?

Discipline: The discipline required to play "properly". I offer that the majority of the population do not have the anywhere near the discipline.

Determination: Closely linkked with above.

Self Ego: IMHO, the biggest enemy of them all. Most people cannot control this.

The "irrational" nature of the mechanics: It seems Poker is the reverse of our natural instinct to learn by our mistakes. In the short term if you play badly you can still win. If you play brilliantly you can still lose. What does this tell your brain? What does this do to your ego?

There is more than enough info on how to play poker well, to keep eveyone busy for the rest of their lives. So why isn't everyone great at it?

I'm just looking to debate what is really at the "heart" of poker.

Regards,
Ian
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  #2  
Old 12-22-2005, 08:13 AM
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Default Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???

[ QUOTE ]
"Conceptualisation": The majority of people just cannot visualise the concept of where the money comes from?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get what you mean here, but it's not necessary for me to

You listed most of the stuff needed to become a good player, except maybe some form of intelligence/talent is requried. I don't want to just say 'intelligence', because some 'smart' people seem to be really dumb when it comes to poker, so there seems to be a specific form of intelligence needed, I dunno what type

But yeah, determination, ego, emotional control/discipline, competitiveness etc. are some important things

You seem to imply those other things you listed are easy to do/control? I don't think it's that easy
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  #3  
Old 12-22-2005, 09:26 AM
Kurn, son of Mogh Kurn, son of Mogh is offline
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Default Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???

The counter-intuitive nature of the game (you touched on this) is one of the key reasons it's so hard to excel at poker. For example, the concept in stud that the 3rd best hand should raise a bet by the best hand in order to get the 2nd best hand to fold appears on the surface to defy common sense.

In chess, if your opponent makes a terrible move and you counter it with the perfect move, you will almost never lose. In poker, a similar situation can lead to a loss often enough in the short term that you can become irrational and lose the discipline necessary to play your best game.

Most people mistakenly view poker as a card game that has a betting aspect added. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Poker is a betting game to which cards have been added to set up the betting situations.

Poker is profitable because most people who play think they're playing a card game. The winning player knows that is a faulty assumption.
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Old 12-22-2005, 09:58 AM
Arnfinn Madsen Arnfinn Madsen is offline
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Default Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???

Good post, sums it up very well.
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  #5  
Old 12-22-2005, 01:59 PM
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Default Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???

I think that you missed interpersonal skills. The longer I play poker the more I understand that what Brunson and all those pros mean when they say that poker is a game of people. In fact, most of my decisions in the game don't have anything at all to do with my cards per se. They have more to do with my opponents. My though processs begins and ends with "Why would he do this action now?" In sum, I think that your statement that there are only a limited number of decisions to make assumes a very narrow understanding of the number of decisions that actually have to be made. Sure, at any given time you only have to decide whether to check, bet, raise, or fold. But the action that you take happens within the context of a myriad of other decisions, and those other decisions have to do with your conception of your opponent. Further, I think the elements of the game discussed in the other posts are secondary to your interpersonal skills. Discipline is important because you must fold when beat. But how do you know you are beat? Because you understand your opponents.
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Old 12-22-2005, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???

Most people mistakenly view poker as a card game that has a betting aspect added. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Poker is a betting game to which cards have been added to set up the betting situations.

This brought the most incredible imagery to me: I have been dealt blank cards. Yes - blank cards. A true master poker player could possibly bet pre-flop, etc., and get all but the most supreme fish and donkeys to lay down. The ultimate bluff! The only way to have "nothing!"

Poker is profitable because most people who play think they're playing a card game. The winning player knows that is a faulty assumption.
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  #7  
Old 12-22-2005, 02:38 PM
Kurn, son of Mogh Kurn, son of Mogh is offline
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Default Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???

I forget who said it, maybe Doyle, that he could beat most people HU at NLHE without looking at his cards as long as the opponent didn't know he wasn't looking at his cards.
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  #8  
Old 12-22-2005, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???

tilt. a large number of losing players could be winning or break even if they didnt tilt.
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  #9  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???

It is very interesting. As an intellectual challenge, poker is to bridge as checkers is to chess (ok maybe that's an exaggeration, but you get the point). Yet there are still not all that many truly good poker players. Strange.

Must have a lot to do with the emotional aspects of gambling. Many highly intelligent people - including many excellent bridge players - just can't embrace the whole part about gambling. Emotional ups and downs associated with gambling causes brain to "short circuit" in some people.

But I do agree. When you get right down to the mathematics of it, and the tools you can employ to get accurate reads on your opponents, it really does make me scratch my head sometimes... Seems like it should be just too easy... So why isn't it??? Maybe it actually is... Most smart people who could be expert poker players just don't realize the opportunity is out there, or as I said before, gambling just doesn't interest them or suit their personality. You do have to be reasonably smart AND have a personality suited to successful gambling. Maybe it's this combination that makes it rarer. Because with online play, you really don't even need any "people skills" at all. You can employ readily availble software tools to get your reads on your opponents... To me, this is the mind blowing part. Used to be, poker playing required real talent in this area. Nowadays, all you need is pokertracker...
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Old 12-22-2005, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???

quote] The number of decisions to make is limited.
The maths involved should be within the grasp of a good proportion of the population.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think these 2 statements are flawed in the first place and contribute partially to why poker is hard.

First of all I do agree that its within reach of a good proportion of the population, however, a good proportion of the population that plays poker doesnt care enough/are too lazy to bother with figuring Pot Odds.

Secondly, the amount of decisions (or non-decision) required in a single tournement for example, is quite high. For a multi-talbe tourney or a 6hour stretch at a ring game the amount of decisions you are required to make using and the abundance of stimuli that you are exposed to is quite staggering. I think this is why, as you said, the determination/disclipline are key factors to being a succesful player. Focus is also a key factor that allows you to be determined/discliplined when u play poker.

I saw a interview not too long ago with The Mouth and he was asked to talk about Ivey. He said that the reason Ivey is so much more succesful then him is not because of a trenmendous skill/experience/knowledge difference (and i beleive that this is true...for what its worth) . The staggering difference in both players bankroll is (according to the Mouth) due to the abnormal amount of focus Ivey can sustain at a poker table. He is always 100% focused on the game, which allows him to play discliplined poker for 14hours a day for 5 days strait if needed.

[ QUOTE ]
The "irrational" nature of the mechanics: It seems Poker is the reverse of our natural instinct to learn by our mistakes. In the short term if you play badly you can still win. If you play brilliantly you can still lose. What does this tell your brain? What does this do to your ego?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very intersting point. The way I was able to overcome that is that, after 1year playing poker quite regularly, I understood that poker is not a card game and that success at <poker> is not mesured in money, but in amount of correct decisions you can make. Most people are quite puzzled when I try to explain to them that to be good at poker you cannot care about how much money you win, as long as you make good decisions (the money will come afterwards).

Not tilting is also a big big big factor so being detached emotionally from the money aspect of poker, and its easy to do when you know that it doesnt matter if you win/lose a pot for 800$ on a 2outter on the river. You made a correct decision for investing 400$ in this situation so be happy about your 800$ pot loss, take some notes and keep playing the same way you are.

MOTA
(join my team @ pokerroom [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img])
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