How's this for post-flop play?

suited_ace · #1 07-17-2005, 10:39 PM

I hated this hand. I hated it while I was playing and I still hate it in hindsight. What would be your line for this one?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter

MP1 (t1365)
MP2 (t1225)
CO (t795)
Button (t2950)
SB (t465)
Hero (t945)
UTG (t1100)
UTG+1 (t1155)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls t50, 2 folds, Button calls t50, SB completes, Hero raises to t250, MP1 calls t200, Button folds, SB folds.

Flop: (t600) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (t600) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t350, MP1 calls t350.

River: (t1300) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

suited_ace · #2 07-18-2005, 10:58 AM

Shameless bump.

Kama45 · #3 07-18-2005, 11:06 AM

What would you have done if the other dude put you all-in?

gildwulf · #4 07-18-2005, 11:10 AM

Yeesh, ok let's see...

Pre-flop 25% of your stack is in the pot...

I think if you're going to make any bet it has to be on the flop...by checking you are telling him you don't have any Ace and he is probably correct to call on the turn. If you're going to bet the only place you have FE is with a continuation bet on the flop. How much to bet?

This is hard to say. I think with your stack committed so much you either have to push on the flop or check/call it down. Aces are pretty much death to kings at low-level buy-ins (people looove their aces) so I would probably check it down.

HesseJam · #5 07-18-2005, 11:11 AM

I bet the turn 100 less, otherwise, I play it the same.

If opponent goes all-in at the river, I am lost, don't know what to do and probably call.

gumpzilla · #6 07-18-2005, 11:13 AM

I tend to prefer a slightly smaller raise PF with your stack size, or you can push. You're not leaving yourself a lot of room to maneuver after the flop.

The limp-call out of MP is not something that is super suggestive of an A, in my opinion. Sometimes it will be an A, but I think it will very frequently not be. Betting on the turn after he checks behind looks more like a bluff than betting on the flop, with this board. I think given the preflop action and given that there's only one caller, I push this flop just to try and take the pot down right now.

Alternatively, if you're not scared of the flush draw (which I don't think you have much reason to be), you can view this as a way ahead-way behind situation and just check-call the whole way. This might be a better approach here, the more I think about it.

Unarmed · #7 07-18-2005, 11:28 AM

It's really not that bad.
The villain that checks his ace behind here is pretty rare.
Most people won't open check an ace in your postition either.

So you neither of you has an ace here most of the time, and both of you should know that. My goal here is to make the most off an underpair to my KK, recognizing that the odds of him having 2 hearts are pretty low. (its HU and the flush ace is on the board in a raised pot)

I don't like the turn bet. The typical opponent is overly aggro so show weakness, check, and call whatever he bets. Your bet is ok against a calling station on a different board (A-low-low) but the odds of him having a middle pair he's willing to call the turn with (i.e.: exactly QQ) is pretty low.

That's your dream card on the river is he's aggro, especially if you showed weakness on the turn by check/calling. Either way check and call whatever he bets.

Betting the flop would be flat out wrong against most opponents. (the exception being the guy who both never bluffs and won't put another dime in the pot unless he sets up) Oh and in case it's not obvious, I'm losing my stack to an ace, mostly due to your stack depth on the flop and the fact that the PF action isn't really consistent with an ace. (he'd need a good one to call off 250 and he would have just raised a good ace to begin with)

PS: The worst part about the entire hand is the PF raise amount.

45suited · #8 07-18-2005, 11:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think given the preflop action and given that there's only one caller, I push this flop just to try and take the pot down right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the logic behind pushing the flop? Isn't this the classic "you'll only be called by a better hand" scenario? Or are you pushing just to avoid getting bluffed off your hand? Like you said, there's no real reason to overly fear the flush draw, so there's even less reason to push the flop.

To me, this is a hand that, by the turn, you've just got to stick with your read (no ace) and either bet for value or try to induce a bluff from a lower PP.

gumpzilla · #9 07-18-2005, 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]

What is the logic behind pushing the flop? Isn't this the classic "you'll only be called by a better hand" scenario? Or are you pushing just to avoid getting bluffed off your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The latter. However, as long as you're willing to put as much of your stack in as you're called to then I think it is probably better to check-call.

45suited · #10 07-18-2005, 12:01 PM

Gump, that's why in spots like this, I would never push, since you know as well as I do that NO ace is ever going to fold here to your push. Unless the board is scary draw heavy, I'd rather check-call than push. (If I don't think he has an ace, which, I agree with you, it doesn't seem like he does.)