Bottom 2 vs. LAG, (not so nice flop)

[SlyAK]

1/2 blinds NL on prima- 200 max

I have $220
CO has $125...

CO is pretty LAG, bets out a lot of hands, sees the flop too often, all the typical stuff..... is capable of folding to pressure though.

I am dealt 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the BB...

1 EP limper, CO limps, SB completes I check, $8 in the pot.

Flop is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, I bet $8, EP folds, CO raises to $24.... SB folds.

CO could have a flush draw here, a made straight, an OESD draw, any pair, 2 pair, etc. I dont think he has a set, as he has been min-raising PF with all PP's.

What is my play here and why?? If I call, what is my move on the turn if a 4th straight card or the flush card falls? How about if a rag falls?

Sly

[PokerFink]

I fold to the raise. I like the bet on the flop, you have to bet that. But that flop is just too ugly. He is on the button, and every possible hand that has you beat he could have limped with. Plus, about half the deck can be considered a scare card on the turn to you're two pair. (Any club makes the flush, a 4th straight card kills you're hand, any over card could potentially give him a better 2 pair). That flop just has so many possibilities, you're hand just isn't that strong to go to war with.

Furthermore, if the turn makes the 4-straight or flush, you're in really deep trouble out of position against an aggressive player. You could potentially try to bluff him out of the pot if you think he has only a pair or better 2 pair, by bluffing the straight/flush with a check/raise on the turn. This would be a very solid play, but it would take huge nerve against a player who raised and bet out the turn even though a scare card hit.

Best bet is to just fold. This is the classic situation of "you have to be willing to fold the best hand sometimes." You're two pair might be good on the flop, but out of position against an aggressive player, you're not going to win this pot very often. Just get out of the way and wait for a better spot.

[SirArthur]

With that ugly flop, I'd probably lay this down, even against a LAG.
You've invested little in this hand thus far, get out and don't go broke on that scary board.

If you call his raise, the pot is now large enough to where you may have to continue on with this hand drawing to only four outs possibly.

I recall many times flopping top two, or even a set on a coordinated board like this, only to find out later that I was drawing thin as my opponent had already flopped his straight.

If I hit a set I'd call, but bottom two to a significant raise I think is a pretty easy fold.

[SkippingGoat]

I fold as well. This is simply not a board on which I want to play two more streets out of position.

[bunky9590]

I'm not calling the raise. I'll wait and smack his ass arounf when I have the goods. bottom 2 on a 3 straight/2 flush board is gonna get real expensive and you may not be good already.

Fold and wait there no real $$ in the pot.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
What is my play here and why??

[/ QUOTE ]

Push. You don't want the turn card affecting your decisions. His raise could be done on a number hands you beat such as A8, a flush draw, 99, 98, 55, overpair, 9x, 5x etc. You hit solidly, and unless CO is the type to only raise with the nuts, you should push your solid hand and make him pay dearly to draw out. You should also be happy to take the pot down right there.

The other reason to push is you might possibly make lesser hands fold such as the sucker straight.

Garland

[Wayfare]

I put him in. Either that or fold (don't do that).

[PokerFink]

You have to be willing to fold the best hand. Pushing here is a terrible move in my opinion, because if you are called, you are beat. Yes, it's possible the button is raising with only a pair, but he isn't going to call the all-in, a pretty substantial re-raise, with just a pair. Anything he calls with he has you beat. Pushing is a negative ev move.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
because if you are called, you are beat

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not necessarily a fact as people in the low limits constantly call big raises all-in with a draw incorrectly. Ax[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is a perfect example as many players simply can't let go of the nut flush potential. I did mention that the push was contingent on the opponent, and I know plenty of loose aggressive opponents I would easily push against. While I have not played at Prima low limits, I have played at Party with all its looseness, and I heard that Prima is an even better game.

His opponent's stack is relatively small (slightly larger than 1/2 the max buy-in), and I think a push would be good here given the description of his opponent and his likely holdings. Losing $120 here wouldn't be a horrible result.

You don't hit strong hands like this very often, and if you make a habit of folding them without consideration, you'll blind away to oblivion...

Garland

[PokerFink]

I agree that many people push all-in and incorrectly call all-in with draws. But, the poster said that his oppenent was a LAG player, but "capable of folding to pressure." I take that description to mean that he would fold a draw to an all-in with bad pot odds, therefore, if he calls you you're beat, because he doesn't have a draw.

Edit: By the way, bottom two pair (especially with that flop) is not that strong of a hand. I don't advocate super-tight play, but if you can't lay down bottom two, you're never going to graduate beyond .50BB NL.