10/20 Bike - AK troubles

onegymrat · #1 11-15-2004, 02:06 AM

Full game.

Hand 1: I open-raise with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Folded around to button who calls, as do the blinds. Four to the flop.

FLOP: 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to button (aggressive player) who bets. SB folds. BB calls. Button says to me before I act, "Ace-King no good!." I call and reply, "Are you sure?"

TURN: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks. I bet and say, "Ace-king looks pretty good." Button mucks with a smile. BB check-raises. "Let me guess, ace-king no good again?", I ask. Everyone laughs while I pretend to laugh and call. Headsup.

RIVER: 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB bets. I call.

Hand 2: One limper to me in MP with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I raise. LP cold-calls. BB calls. Early limper calls. Four to the flop.

FLOP: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet. LP raises. Two folds. I 3-bet. LP calls. Headsup.

TURN: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet. LP raises. I call.

RIVER: not a king

I check-call.

Steve Giufre · #2 11-15-2004, 02:21 AM

I dont know. I probably play hand one the same way most of the time, although there is something about that betting pattern that is just nasty. When I raise preflop and the ace gets there on the turn, and I bet it and get checkraised, it seems like the dude can almost always beat top pair. Its like they are putting you on a big ace, it got there, they cant expect to move you off of it, so how often is it a move? I think something like AQ AJ leads into you or check calls the turn. but there is a flush draw out there, so I guess it is just player dependant. I think calling as a default is OK but I probably think its a lot closer than everybody else does.

Hand two the turn and river look fine, but I'm not sure about the way you got there. Not a very good flop for your hand in a multiway pot. Unless you have one hell of a squeeky tight image or you up agaist someone you really feel like you can move around I'm not sure what you are going to accomplish with the flop three bet. If you had position on him maybe I like it a little more.

BTW, that game sucks. I mean for a while that was like the worst game in California. I havent been there in a while, the 20-40 is usually a pretty good game but that 10-20 is propped up and full of guys who muck stuff like KQ and 77 UTG.

LarsVegas · #3 11-15-2004, 03:51 AM

He is seeing the turn with AK in the second hand whether he bets or checks the flop unless he has to call two bets cold somewhere along the way. The backdoor flush draw makes this a no-brainer. He has 22 interesting cards to pick up on the turn, with 8 giving him a very strong hand (ace, king or Qh/Th), another 8 giving him a decent hand and lastly 6 cards for the gutshot nut straight draw to go with six overcard outs to top pair/top kicker, making it OK to put in another bet to see the river.

So basically, he will be going to the river about half the time here, usually with pretty decent to very strong draws or top pair/top kicker.

I agree with all the rest Steve.

Interesting hands,

lars

Michael Davis · #4 11-15-2004, 03:53 AM

I would bet the flop in both hands with only one player to act afterwards. Four-handed I'm generally still betting airballed aces because there's some chance I'm ahead and an even better chance I get a freecard or the button.

The turn and river on hand one seem fine. You have to call on the river for sure because maybe you just counterfeited his two pair. The "while I pretend to laugh" touch is nice.

In hand two you got way out of line on the flop. The threebet doesn't serve any purpose because you can't even get a free card with a player to act behind. Did you have a reason for making this play, like you hadn't played a hand in six hours and LP is the type to make solid laydowns?

-Michael

slavic · #5 11-15-2004, 04:16 AM

In hand two you got way out of line on the flop.

I agree without knowing more about the LP player I think your pushing in the wrong direction. There are several players I play with that will raise me anytime an A or K doesn't hit the board and a 3 bet plus a turn bet will end their ploy, but those are two specific players I've played a lot and sometimes they do have a hand.

onegymrat · #6 11-15-2004, 01:31 PM

Did you have a reason for making this play, like you hadn't played a hand in six hours and LP is the type to make solid laydowns?
I'd been playing for about four hours with an average of one hand per two orbits. This was not a good game and I was too stubborn to pick up my chips and go back over to Commerce. The villain was an average player who cold-called a wee bit too much. I, on the other hand, was described by one player as "tighter than the skin on a grape." I had a couple of pf raises I made that I had to bail after a turn bet, and I felt that in this particular hand, if he had a pocket lower than top pair, I could take the pot with a turn bet. Surprisingly the ace came and for a slight moment, I was happy.

Doubling12 · #7 11-15-2004, 01:40 PM

It is still that bad, when it's going. HP is the only other SoCal club I know of that spreads 10-20, but they cut off the low limit section at 6-12. The Bike spreads 8-16. The type of person who chooses the 10-20 over the 8-16 is the type who would say "I can't play the fish, they are too unpredictable, I want to play where my raises get respect" yada yada yada.

Steve Giufre · #8 11-15-2004, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He is seeing the turn with AK in the second hand whether he bets or checks the flop unless he has to call two bets cold somewhere along the way. The backdoor flush draw makes this a no-brainer. He has 22 interesting cards to pick up on the turn, with 8 giving him a very strong hand (ace, king or Qh/Th), another 8 giving him a decent hand and lastly 6 cards for the gutshot nut straight draw to go with six overcard outs to top pair/top kicker, making it OK to put in another bet to see the river.
lars

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree as usual. I still like just calling the flop raise better than three betting though, unless he thinks he has a reasonable shot at moving the guy off of something like middle pair.

andyfox · #9 11-15-2004, 02:38 PM

Hand 1, I'd have to call down. SB came to life on the turn, so it's not impossible he has A-7.

Hand 2, I hate putting in 3 bets on the flop with no pair and no position. Sure looks like he has A-J on the turn. Most guys on a draw won't raise again when you come out firing on the turn.

onegymrat · #10 11-15-2004, 03:52 PM

The main question for most is why I chose to reraise the flop in hand 2. The answer is because I'm a poker playing fool.

Hand 1: BB had 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and takes the pot with a full-house.

Hand 2: LP had A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and takes the pot with two pair.

Thanks for the input.