Big Mistake with KK postflop? I think so...

[DawnToDusk]

I was at the local B&M cardroom the other night and was playing in your typical $3/$6. It was very loose for the most part. Nine players (including myself). One of the was tight and would only and raise premimum hands, but his postflop play was pretty bad to marginal. One of the players was also calling any of my raises to snap me off. Sometimes he would even reraise me with holdings such as A7, Axs, and KJ, etc. I cracked his pocket aces earlier with pocket jacks and he obviously wasn't a happy camper for the rest of the night. There was also someone who really had not concept of how to play preflop or postflop. He would 3bet with hands like Q10 and other very marginal holdings preflop and would always check raise on the flop if he hit any of it. He was also timid as well. So here is the hand...

Here is some info about the players:

MP2: The man who is calling my raises trying to snap me off.
BB: The player with not concept of play preflop or postflop.

Preflop: UTG+1(Hero): Kd Kh

UTG calls, UTG+1(Hero) raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 3bet, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB caps, UTG calls, UTG+1(Hero) calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Flop: Qs, 8s, 7h

SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1(Hero) bets, MP2 raises, SB calls, BB 3bets, UTG calls, UTG+1(Hero) folds, MP2 calls, SB calls.

What was I doing here? Well I was thinking to myself "What if these guys actually have a hand here." I called time before I folded and looked at all the plays my opponents had made previous hands. Didn't have much on the SB and UTG because they were kind of new to the table and didn't see them play a lot yet, but I knew how MP2 and BB played. I figured BB is raising with the queen but he is also likely to have two pair here. He has been calling and raising with weird hands all night, especially if there is a face card in it. Anyways after a while I folded for another two bets (SB) in a pot that was like almost 30 SB at the time. Here is the rest of the hand.

Turn: Ad

SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks.

I nearly crapped myself here. After I saw this I knew almost hundred precent I was ahead here unless someone was trying for a check raise.

River: Ac

SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks.

And then I knew for sure I was ahead here. When the dealer asked everyone to flip their cards over the BB won with Q10. MP2 had Q5 as well.

After looking back on the hand I am trying to really think about why I folded. I figured that on the flop I was dead and for 2 more bets with only two outs that could be winners I wasn't getting the odds and thats by I folded.

But how would you play this? And can you say surely that my fold was a mistake? This hand is just killing me!!!

Thanks for your help.

[Eliyahu]

I would cap it on the flop, bet the turn and if raised there I would check call it down. With your reads on these guys you just have to assume you have them dead barring another spade. If they are this loose you can't be scared when they are betting what is probably their top pair, mid pair or straight/flush draws. That's just my take on it.

Eli~

[DawnToDusk]

I didn't get to cap it thought on the flop. I was the first to raise and then it was 3bet by MP2 and capped by BB.

Would this still change your play?

When I first saw the Ace I was like "Good." But then after seeing all of their actions on the turn I nearly died from a heart attack.

[franksc]

My play is to always try to punish lose play with premium hands. I would have capped until the A showed.

[DawnToDusk]

That board is pretty coordinated though.

There is already a flush and a straight draw. I found a flush draw to be more probable than a straight draw, but with what these guys were playing tonight I wasn't excluding anything.

[Blackdirt12]

When you folded there was thirty one small bets in the pot costing you two bets to continue. You are getting 15.5 to 1 on your money. You're 23.5 to 1 to make a set on the turn. You had an overpair, and at that point were losing to AA, QQ, Q7, Q8, 78, 88 and 77. There's allot of draws that might come in that can beat you, BUT THEY HAVE NOT COME IN YET. Your two raisers sound like chumps. MP2 has a hard on to chase you down, and as you said yourself the BB has no idea what he's doing. I would cap. With the ace, after three checks I'm going to bet. If MP2 raises I'm going to call him down. I really can't believe you laid this down. I don't understand it at all.

[DawnToDusk]

Ya nor do I. After calling some people and talking with some people if I could of done it again I would of called.

My logic is this. In games where pots are getting capped preflop, people are gonna come out betting the flop and raising and reraising to protect their hands. While I was thinking about going on I was like "So I could be beat, but I am sure one of them has a Q and is jacking it up to protect his hand. Most likely MP2. And the BB must have caught something or have another pair." So my logic was right.

And after calling the next thing I would of done is fire a bet right on that ace. It is a pretty bold move here, but it will definately slow down people with the Q and also freeze up other people when they miss draws.

What you think of that?

[elindauer]

Hi Dawn,

One raiser thinks you are constantly bluffing, and the other has no clue how to play. Folding an overpair here is a mistake.

Get 'em next time,
Eric

[damaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
And after calling the next thing I would of done is fire a bet right on that ace. It is a pretty bold move here, but it will definately slow down people with the Q and also freeze up other people when they miss draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, bet the ace, but your logic kind of sucks. Do you really want someone with a pair of queens to freeze up? Granted, I don't want to get raised on this turn again, as I am probably behind if it happens, but if people do have worse hands than me, I really have no problem with them continuing to put money into the pot. The correct reason for betting the A is that you still are reasonably likely to have the best hand, and if you do not, you will often be raised or reraised, depending on what exactly is out there, making it easier to get away from your hand when beaten, while getting many big bets into the pot while ahead as well as giving people a chance to fold some live outs, increasing your chances of winning a huge pot.

[Blackdirt12]

[ QUOTE ]

And after calling the next thing I would of done is fire a bet right on that ace. It is a pretty bold move here, but it will definately slow down people with the Q and also freeze up other people when they miss draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

A straight or flush draw has the odds to chase down that bet. KJ has the odds to chase it down. On average I'd say you're losing to A3 or A7 here maybe AQ w/MP2, the key would be the three checks in front of you. At which point you're betting for value, and hoping on some level that MP2 raises which causes the other three to abandon their draws(although they'd still be getting the right odds), and you to check call the river.