KJ on bubble. Is this a push?

[tigerite]

But as pergesu correctly states (and I did read the post), if shorty calls when a big stack has gone over the top of you, he will have a _very_ good hand, one that has KJo beat that's for sure, so you still have to fold anyway. You can't do a "trap" kind of move with something as crappy as KJo.

[tigerite]

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you're in a much worse spot if he pushes into you the following hand for 580 than if he did for 280.


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This simply isn't true as if you beat him in this situation, instead of going to 1.2k chips, you go to closer to 2k. Also, you have the chance to fold, whereas for 80 chips you obviously cannot. (Though you shouldn't fold most hands, admittedly)

[kiddj]

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Ignore SNGPT - ICM no good here since short stack is so small relative to BB and is currently in the BB.

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I call sehenanigans. With bno backsies. Or asafe szones. No reveraslas either.

Saying "ignore ICM since there's a small astack" is RETARDED. ICM takse intso account theas smalle astk. If you don't wknow that, read about ICM. Befor eyou amek retardedc omments.

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I sure wouldn't push, however I wonder if a limp isn't a decent play here.

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Keep wodering. Casue a limp is HORRIBLE

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The problem with folding is that you really don't want it to fold to the SB who decides he's going to put shorty allin with his T3o and double him up. And folds all around is also a bad result for you. You probably have the best hand out there so it seems wrong to me to let the BB off by folding it and giving him a better shot at surviving by not having to beat your hand.

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Okay, aso maybe not a complete idiot. That's all valid. There's a good shot you avhea thea beast hand. Anda you'd prefer that someone else not todubel him up. The prboelm is, your'e very likely to be ast best a 60/40 favorite. Better soemrone else doubele him upat than mea, yeah? Lets them lose chisp. I'll save myine and wtf_opwne everyone on the next ocueple hands.

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If you limp the BB doesn't get a free ride

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Unless he cliskes the "check" button. Iinstant free ride

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and you probably encourage one or both of the big stacks in to try to help beat him.

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Ot you encourange them to steal tyour [censored]. Seriously, if there's a small tsatck and soemone limps, I pusn with the quickness. "BIATCH, YOU CAN'T CALL, CAUS THERE's A SMALLIE. SHIP IT BATCH" For real, I've got as coueple greats expalenes from doatyday. Limping = chipc draing

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The fact that you allow him to see a flop is irrelevant since he's calling allin to a raise anyway, and it's way better than giving him a walk.

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Huh? Howas is giving someone a frees loooka t the flop "irrelevant"? It'sa anyting butn irrelevant. btw, when he clicks check, it is infa cact a "walk", so yovue' done nothing tohter than give him better pot odds.

Right, asue you fold.

Call if eh calls....fold if he folds. There must be someon logic I'm missing, btut hits seem,s earatraded. If he calls, you're not gonna bea fvery good favorite. At all. In fact thaer's a decent chance you're a dog. But if he folds...the you fold? Why, casue now you wkno the big stack has you beat?

No. If big tsack pushes, you have to fold, regardless of teh action. You can't risk your tourney with that smallie all-in with a hadns as weak as KJo, when one gusy has set you all-in, and antoher has agladyly aalled. This is just anti-tourney sthireoyr, and, put simply, is reatrded. This is why you don't adlimp in the first place.

Wow. Not only do youa think a min-raise with 6 BB is a solid play, but you thiank a limp is BETTER?! Maybe if you got aces or kings. Thent rap. But wtf...making some kingd of bullshit trap play with KJo? That's a recipe for disaster.

I'm sorry I've been so harsh to your post, but it looks lieke incredibly horribel advice to me. Sseriously, even a durnik 19 year-old can ripf it aprart with absolteuyl not probelems at all. Cause its' truly hirrrobiel.

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Dude. Your typing gives me a headache. Slow down, please. I suspect your ideas and advice were worth reading, but you should at least try to not reverse all the letters.

(PS: If you are actually dyslexic, I apologize. Still, you may want to take your time.)

[kamrann]

Regardless of the fact you've been quite a dick here, I'm going to respond in the hope that when you sober up you might actually open your mind and look at my reasoning, rather than just dismiss things because you think you already know everything, which you clearly don't. First off, I never said "You should limp in", I merely suggested the possibility, gave some reasons why it might be okay, and opened it up to 'discussion'. I don't think anything I said was retarded, idiotic or horrible.

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Saying "ignore ICM since there's a small astack" is RETARDED. ICM takse intso account theas smalle astk. If you don't wknow that, read about ICM. Befor eyou amek retardedc omments.

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I fully understand ICM. First, it doesn't account for position of blinds. The short stack being on the BB right now is very relevant, ICM doesn't know this information. ICM equities are calculated based on proportional stack sizes. It has many limitations, in particular when the blinds become very large realtive to the stacks it becomes very unreliable, because other factors are much more important than simply the sizes of the stacks in determining true equity. I think you should read about how ICM works. Do you even know the actual algorithm used to calculate the equities?

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Keep wodering. Casue a limp is HORRIBLE

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I was wondering, so I posted in the hope of some discussion. This is not very much use to anyone. Are you so good at poker that you no longer need to think about situations?

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The prboelm is, your'e very likely to be ast best a 60/40 favorite. Better soemrone else doubele him upat than mea, yeah?

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You're only a probable 60/40 if the two big stacks fold (very unlikely). Letting someone else take care of him doesn't work if noone else does, does it? Since BB is committed, the other two will not be playing junk so could both fold very easily.

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Unless he cliskes the "check" button. Iinstant free ride

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Huh? Howas is giving someone a frees loooka t the flop "irrelevant"? It'sa anyting butn irrelevant. btw, when he clicks check, it is infa cact a "walk", so yovue' done nothing tohter than give him better pot odds.

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No. He hasn't got a free ride since he hasn't been given any chips, just a look at a flop. So what, he was calling allin anyway, which allows him to see all 5 cards. The only difference is that he may now decide to fold on the flop with half his stack in. That's good.

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Ot you encourange them to steal tyour [censored]. Seriously, if there's a small tsatck and soemone limps, I pusn with the quickness. "BIATCH, YOU CAN'T CALL, CAUS THERE's A SMALLIE. SHIP IT BATCH" For real, I've got as coueple greats expalenes from doatyday. Limping = chipc draing

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Mostly unintelligible, but the point was that a big stack pushing over you is not a bad thing if it makes the BB fold himself down to 1BB. See my other response above.

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Call if eh calls....fold if he folds. There must be someon logic I'm missing, btut hits seem,s earatraded. If he calls, you're not gonna bea fvery good favorite. At all. In fact thaer's a decent chance you're a dog. But if he folds...the you fold? Why, casue now you wkno the big stack has you beat?

No. If big tsack pushes, you have to fold, regardless of teh action. You can't risk your tourney with that smallie all-in with a hadns as weak as KJo, when one gusy has set you all-in, and antoher has agladyly aalled. This is just anti-tourney sthireoyr, and, put simply, is reatrded. This is why you don't adlimp in the first place.

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Yes you are missing some logic. If the BB calls then you can overcall much more easily, since you have him outchipped and therefore the only way you can bubble is if BB makes the best hand, big stack makes the second best hand, and you the third best hand. This won't happen often at all.

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Wow. Not only do youa think a min-raise with 6 BB is a solid play, but you thiank a limp is BETTER?! Maybe if you got aces or kings. Thent rap. But wtf...making some kingd of bullshit trap play with KJo? That's a recipe for disaster.

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Don't twist my words. I never said min-raising was a solid play. And I would never do it or advocate doing it. I was merely saying that it's not as horrible as it may first appear, for the same reasons that a limp isn't either.

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I'm sorry I've been so harsh to your post, but it looks lieke incredibly horribel advice to me. Sseriously, even a durnik 19 year-old can ripf it aprart with absolteuyl not probelems at all. Cause its' truly hirrrobiel.

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Don't apologise, I don't really mind what you think. As I said, it wasn't advice, it was discussion. You didn't rip anything apart, you just saw something that your instinct disagreed with and decided to blast it instead of thinking about it. Next time at least read the reasoning and respond, rather than just saying things are retarded. Or just don't post drunk.

[kamrann]

I don't follow. I never said anything about trapping. And I don't see why the BB would have to have a very big hand to call in this case, given that he has half of his stack in already. I doubt that he would really believe you're going to call the allin after just limping anyway, so I don't think this would affect his decision much.

And you don't have to fold anyway. You don't need to have a better hand than the short stack, you just need to avoid a BB:BigStack:You order for the showdown hands in order to place ITM. I get the impression people often don't understand how unlikely this result is in general, and that when the short stack is already allin and you have him covered, you can open up your calling range hugely.

[tigerite]

Sadly, I think KJo will make third-best hands quite a bit too much to make calling when he calls viable. If it was a pair above 77, or maybe 88, then this is much more valid.

[tigerite]

I'm afraid this is incorrect, you should do some runs with KJo against two likely holdings (I think you can at least say the BB would have some kind of high card), to see that it doesn't hold up in 1st or 2nd compared to 3rd all that often at all, certainly not enough to risk your tournament on. All it takes is big stack to hit one of his two cards, BB to have an ace, and you to miss completely, for example.

[kamrann]

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you're in a much worse spot if he pushes into you the following hand for 580 than if he did for 280.


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This simply isn't true as if you beat him in this situation, instead of going to 1.2k chips, you go to closer to 2k. Also, you have the chance to fold, whereas for 80 chips you obviously cannot. (Though you shouldn't fold most hands, admittedly)

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But it is true, just look at your equity in the two cases. Obviously you'd rather the short stack had 280 than 580. If he has 280, pushes and wins, you are still in better shape than him. With 580, he cripples you completely making you a strong favourite to bubble. I don't see how the option of folding is a good thing. By definition, when you don't have the option it's because it's +$EV to call. If you fold to his 580 allin you're about even with him. Which is worse even than the situation when you actually lose to the 280 allin.

[kamrann]

Maybe I'm off a bit here, but two things.

1. You don't even need to finish 2nd. You can happily finish 3rd so long as big stack beats BB.

2. Back to the original point, I never said you should call in this spot anyway, I said you can if you choose. You can happily fold and let the big stack take on shorty, still being in fine shape if he doubles. And yet more relevantly, this outcome of a big stack pushing AND BB calling is just one (somewhat unlikely) of the possible outcomes resulting from open limping. It's a less likely and also less bad outcome than the BB getting a walk should you open fold.

[tigerite]

Still be in fine shape if he doubles? But you just said having 580 v 1280 was bad, but now that 960 v 1080 is "in fine shape"? That's contradictory.