Two Bellagio 30-60 misplayed turns

[skp]

I am pretty sure that I misplayed the turn on both of these Bellagio 30-60 hands that occurred on separate days on my Vegas trip this past weekend. For the purposes of the post, you should assume that I didn't have much of a read on the players in either case. I will hold off on saying what I actually did at the table. But you get bonus points if you can say what I did and what I am now thinking I should have done.

Hand 1

EP, MP and button limp. Sb calls. I raise with AsKs from the bb. 5 way action.

Flop: Qs7h4h

I bet. EP and MP call. Button raises. Sb folds and the rest of us call. 4 way action.

Turn: 7s

What's my line?

Hand no. 2

EP, MP and sb limp. I raise from the bb with AsTs.

Flop: 7h4d2c rainbow. I bet. Ep folds while other two players call.

Turn: Th

I bet. Mp calls. Sb checkraises.

What's my line now?

[Clarkmeister]

1. Hope to checkraise the button.

2. Depends on your read. If you are going to showdown, then you need to 3-bet.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Hope to checkraise the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

He might foil your plan by checking behind on his heart flush draw.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. Hope to checkraise the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

He might foil your plan by checking behind on his heart flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would that be terrible allowing hero to draw for free?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Hope to checkraise the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've thought about this some, and I just don't like the parlay of the Button pretty much always betting this if he has a Q (or god forbid a 7), but often checking behind when he has a flush draw. I actually think that, if your goal is to get the players stuck in the middle to make an incorrect fold, you are more likely on balance to accomplish that by betting than by attempting to get a check-raise in.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I've thought about this some, and I just don't like the parlay of the Button pretty much always betting this if he has a Q (or god forbid a 7), but often checking behind when he has a flush draw. I actually think that, if your goal is to get the players stuck in the middle to make an incorrect fold, you are more likely on balance to accomplish that by betting than by attempting to get a check-raise in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking the same thing, Nate. If it gets checked through, then any weak made hand gets a free shot at the river. I can see the argument that betting out on the turn might be a decent line here.

[Clarkmeister]

No one takes free cards anymore. If he happens to check behind, then god bless him.

[Subfallen]

1. The pivotal question is whether button has a better hand than us. If he does, he isn't folding. If he isn't folding, we need to improve to win. And none of our outs need to be cleared up, so let's just check-call. (If we somehow know we aren't drawing dead and all 15 outs are live, lead out with 32% equity.)

But if we have some read that the button will play a flush draw like this, check-motherfcuking-raise so the donkeys fold and the blank river goes check-check, OHIG.

2. I think we need to see the river (yes?) MP seems likely to have a draw (wouldn't pair+overcard raise the flop?!) so he's not folding if we 3-bet. That leaves call.

[Danielih]

I would like to 3bet the flop in the first example to try and get rid of some of the players. In any event checkraising and leading out the turn probably run close in value.

In the second example I think you should certainly 3bet.

[Lestat]

Not sure what mistake you think you made on the turn in hand 1, but had you 3-bet the flop, my guess is that you'd have been less likely to make it.