Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > PL/NL Texas Hold'em > Small Stakes Pot-, No-Limit Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-29-2005, 05:16 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default TPTK, controlling the pot size question

I致e been trying a new move lately after reading so much on these forums about controlling pot size, especially with a vulnerable hand like an over pair or TPTK. I知 not completely comfortable with this type of play because my instincts are always to push hard when I think I知 ahead, so please let me know what you think.

Party/Empire $100NL with $1 BB

Hero has $88 and Villain has me slightly covered. Not much of a read on Villain, but seems to be OK but not great.

MP calls and folded to Hero in CO with As-Qc who makes it $5 to go. Villain in SB calls, BB calls, and MP limper calls.

($20) Flop: Qd 9d 3h

Villain bets out $3, fold, fold, Hero raise to $20 and Villain calls.

I知 thinking he is either on a diamond draw or has me crushed with a set and is hoping to get raised with the smallish $3 bet. I知 thinking to myself, keep in mind the 2+2 forums ideas of keeping the pot small with this hand. So I raise to 20 to make sure I don稚 let the draw hit for cheap.

($60) Turn: Qd 9d 3 h 9s

Villain checks. I figure the 9s is harmless since you wouldn稚 think he calls 20 on the flop with second pair. If I bet here I知 thinking I have to bet 30 which pretty much commits my stack to this hand, since I have something like 60 left. Again, I知 thinking I知 either crushed by a set or way away of his weaker Q. I decide to check behind in an effort to control the pot and figuring I can probably then call something in the range of 20-35 on the river assuming no diamond or K.. Right move?

(60) River: Qd 9d 3h 9s 2c

Villain checks. At this point, I知 sure I have the best hand, because if he was going for the check raise on the turn there痴 no way he checks the river after I checked behind him on the turn. My gut is telling me he has K-Q, since he called the 20 on the flop OOP. I decide to value bet the river for 20 pretty sure he値l either fold or call with the second best hand, especially since I showed weakness on the turn. Right move?

Again, I知 trying to keep the pot small and not commit my whole stack to this hand. I also feel like there have been a lot of times when I thought I had the best hand in position and continued my bet on the turn only to get check raised and have to fold because I didn稚 want to commit my whole stack容ven though plenty of times I think the other guy is bluffing. So I guess I知 thinking of this as a general new play for me in similar situations. By controlling the pot, I can call a moderate size river bet which is basically how much I would have put in on the turn anyway, but this way I actually get to the showdown. Of course, I知 risking him hitting the river too, but I also induce river bluffs plenty of times too. This is also a play I would only do in position, I think. Please let me know what you think.

I値l post the results in a little bit.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-29-2005, 05:23 AM
gulebjorn gulebjorn is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 0
Default Re: TPTK, controlling the pot size question

I'm probably sticking in $30 on the turn. I wanna take it down right there. All I can see beating me here is 33 or maybe a slowplayed KK. QQ and 99 seems unlikely. If I can't take it down, at least I wanna make him pay for his draw. If that commits me, so be it.

But I dropped from the 100's a while ago, so this is all open to discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-29-2005, 09:10 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default RESULTS: Re: TPTK, controlling the pot size question

I was really hoping to get some feedback from this one. Anyway, he called my river bet and ended up having K-Q like I thought. I won a $100 pot. I'm still not sure about the play though and would still like thoughts on it, if anyone has any.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-29-2005, 10:17 AM
swolfe swolfe is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 632
Default Re: TPTK, controlling the pot size question

perfectly played, IMO. there's no reason to bet the turn.

when he checks again on the river, you know you have him. it'd have to be a very tricky (or dumb) opponent who would check a 9 or full house twice.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-29-2005, 10:25 AM
passion passion is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 58
Default Re: TPTK, controlling the pot size question

I make this play often, but I rarely do it with a hand as strong as AQ with a Q939 board and a diamond draw. I would have pushed on the turn, hoping to get called by KQ or QJ or a mid pair. If the guy had a nine - he would win a big pot and I would be ok with that.

Passion

Edit It should be noted that I a big time LAG so that I often find that people call me and push at me with total crap.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-29-2005, 10:28 AM
swolfe swolfe is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 632
Default Re: TPTK, controlling the pot size question

[ QUOTE ]
I make this play often, but I rarely do it with a hand as strong as AQ with a Q939 board and a diamond draw. I would have pushed on the turn, hoping to get called by KQ or QJ or a mid pair. If the guy had a nine - he would win a big pot and I would be ok with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's no piece of advice regularly given out by inexperienced SSNL players on this board that annoys me more than "push and hope".
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-29-2005, 10:33 AM
Padster Padster is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1
Default Re: TPTK, controlling the pot size question

OK I'm uncomfortable disagreeing with swolfe but here goes...


Your flop raise is spot on and I totally agree with your flop reads (also AKd is a poss which has K as a danger card).

To me the villain check on the turn is standard. He's always going to do that. He either wants the c/r or the free card. He certainly doesn't want to call a bet.

So then you're really into what do you think he's more likely to have? the 9 was a good card as it makes 99 unlikely. You have a Q so for a set he is most likely to have have 33. he could also have KK. So only 2 hands that you're really worried about vs a fair few of hands he could have (ie flush draw).

You can be pretty comfortable you're ahead and that he's drawing.

Therefore you have to bet out. The check is dangerous and weak in my view. when the hand is shown down at the end the other players will see your turn play and be able to block bet their draws in future against you.

If villain raises your turn bet you have to fold. And villain probably doesn't call if drawing. If he does call then the river is checked down (or call his value bet depending on size).

Given the way you actually played the turn I think your river bet is fine.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-29-2005, 10:37 AM
passion passion is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 58
Default Re: TPTK, controlling the pot size question

[ QUOTE ]
there's no piece of advice regularly given out by inexperienced SSNL players on this board that annoys me more than "push and hope".

[/ QUOTE ]

It is poker and at best all you can really have is a sense that you are ahead. There is no certaintly.

Perhaps my prior post is flavored by the way that I play and the way that people respond to my play. For July I'm 40%+ VP$IP and 18% PFR. Because of this people make calls against me frequently that they would not make against other players. For me - the call of the 20 on the flop by my opponent would not be an indication that he had a solid holding and I would push the turn expecting to get called by a worse hand. Anybody who has played with me knows that I am fully capable of bluff pushing on the turn so the opponent would be in a tough spot with a hand like JQ or KQ or even 88 after I pushed. Thats why I said I would expect to get called by a worse hand.

If I might also add - our Hero's chips stack going into the turn is slightly less than the pot. If this were a battle of larger stacks (150+) checking the turn would be a much better play IMO.

BTW I have lots of experience playing SSNL - 20K+ hands per month for the past 2-years.

Passion
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-29-2005, 10:44 AM
gulebjorn gulebjorn is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 0
Default Re: TPTK, controlling the pot size question

[ QUOTE ]
there's no reason to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

To make more money off your TPTK? Don't you think you would have been checkraised/bet into if you were beat?

Also, if he was going for the c/r, he will bet the river every time. If you do not bet the turn, you will not know if he's bluffing because you showed weakness on the turn, or if he's really got you beat.

If you bet the turn and he just calls, you will probably be able to check the river behind. If you are raised, you can get away easily. If he suddenly wakes up on the river and pushes, you can lay it down too. This is the biggest difference with checking behind IMO: if you check behind and he bets a blank river, you practically have to call him, because you will induce many bluffs following your line.

Not saying that you're wrong and I'm right, but what do you think of this?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-29-2005, 10:45 AM
SonOfWestwood SonOfWestwood is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 136
Default Re: TPTK, controlling the pot size question

[ QUOTE ]
perfectly played, IMO. there's no reason to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get stuck in situations like this as well, and am not always sure what to do. Can you explain a little why checking behind on the turn is alright? My tendency is to bet again because I don't want to give a free card to a possible flush draw. Is it because the risk of becoming pot committed with an inferior hand outweighs the chance that they're on a flush draw and will hit on the river?

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.