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  #1  
Old 07-29-2005, 04:45 AM
rheaume rheaume is offline
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Default $.50/1 NL - in retrospect i misplayed this, how would you play it?

first let me say as always im looking for constructive criticism and comments and also how YOU would play this exact same hand.

a hand at interpoker .50/1$ nl.
following a lengthy session of high variance poker, and generally a lot of suckouts/pocket pairs running into slowplayed aces, etc.
a little background - about me (t_montana) and aceslady1 - the only 2 people in the hand.
aceslady1 was the only player i had really been involved in hands with since i sat down at this table not too long ago.
in the first hand we played together i had a set of deuces - slowplayed em on the flop (checks around), checkraised the turn (just me and aceslady) , and got minimum raised on the river. there was a possible straight (would have been open ended from the flop) so instead of reraising i simply called. aceslady flopped 2nd pair and rivered 2 pair. so i was a winner.
after that aceslady would call every raise i put out there, just to see a flop. apparently something about that set of deuces really set her off. then i'd bet, most of the time totally missing the flop, and she'd fold. all of this within the course of about 20 min, maybe a bit more. so when this hand happened - and aceslady1 raised me on the flop - i knew something was goin down.............

------HAND 11------
Game #743074634: Texas Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1) - 2005/07/29 - 02:54:53 (ET)
Table "Steelton" Seat 10 is the button.
Seat 1: CzarMD ($150.25 in chips)
Seat 2: Cyberjunk ($12.25 in chips)
Seat 3: Tobe2000 ($229.30 in chips)
Seat 4: Keshav52 ($99 in chips)
Seat 5: GreenThum ($65 in chips)
Seat 6: OhhhKKK ($16.50 in chips)
Seat 7: champ18 ($60.50 in chips)
Seat 8: Ur@munter ($29.75 in chips)
Seat 9: t_montana ($138.75 in chips)
Seat 10: AcesLady1 ($65.02 in chips)
CzarMD: posts small blind $0.50
Cyberjunk: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to t_montana [Kh Qh]
Tobe2000: folds
Keshav52: folds
GreenThum: folds
OhhhKKK: folds
champ18: folds
Ur@munter: folds
t_montana: raises to $5
AcesLady1: calls $5
CzarMD: folds
Cyberjunk: folds
----- FLOP ----- [7h 8s 3h]
t_montana: bets $10
AcesLady1: raises to $25
t_montana: calls $15

****at this point i failed to notice how pot commited aceslady is going to be on the turn. obviously a mistake. that stuff seems to happen after 11 hrs straight of 4 tabling NL at varioius limits, switching constantly to adapt to the juciest Avg pot sizes.


----- TURN ----- [7h 8s 3h][5c]
t_montana: checks
AcesLady1: bets $35.02 and is all-in

****ok now im trying to put aceslady on a hand, add the bets and dead money, and do the odds before that stupid timer goes off. the pot is $97.52 minus the rake. i'm getting about 2.7:1 on the pot to call her all in bet.
my first thought is "maybe she got lucky and flopped a set" which means im dead to a heart that doesnt pair the board (7 outs 5.6:1)
due to our limited experience and what seems to be a bit of a grudge/tilt after that set of deuces hand (and then me pushing her around after i obviously couldn't have hit every flop) i decide that's way too much credit. obviously a straight is possible, but callin a 5x bb preflop raise with 64, even suited and even on the button, heads up, seems like way too much of a novice move at .50/1 nl.
so i decide at best there's a pair she's got out there. 8s or 7s probably. or hell, maybe just a draw. perhaps a smaller flush draw, if i'm lucky.
so, i have determined (in about 5 seconds because the timer is about to hit zero) that my Kings and Queens are both live cards, and thus outs. this gives me 9 hearts left in the deck to make my flush. plus 3 kings and 3 queens. that's 15 outs and real odds of 2.1:1.
that means i have the mathematical rights to call her all in bet here, with pot odds of 2.7:1


t_montana: calls $35.02
----- RIVER ----- [7h 8s 3h 5c][5h]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
AcesLady1: shows [8c Ks] (Two Pairs, Eights and Fives, King high)
t_montana: shows [Kh Qh] (A Flush, King high)
t_montana collected $128.54 from Main pot

*********sooooo as we can see, my kings were actually dead, meaning i had 12 outs, not 15. and my odds to call were 2.8:1, very close to the pot odds of 2.7:1, but still mathematically incorrect for me to call, albeit barely. but i made my flush and won the hand.

----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $131.54 Main pot $128.54 Rake $3
Board [7h 8s 3h 5c 5h]
Seat 1: CzarMD (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Cyberjunk (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Tobe2000 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Keshav52 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: GreenThum folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: OhhhKKK folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: champ18 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Ur@munter folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: t_montana showed [Kh Qh] and won ($128.54) with A Flush, King high
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  #2  
Old 07-29-2005, 04:49 AM
fimbulwinter fimbulwinter is offline
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Default Re: $.50/1 NL - in retrospect i misplayed this, how would you play it?

just fold the flop when a bad player raises and you have overcards. against the range of hands loose, passive players raise there you don't have nearly the odds to draw to overcards and, as with all overcard draws, your implied odds are slim to none.

fim
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  #3  
Old 07-29-2005, 04:54 AM
rheaume rheaume is offline
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Default Re: $.50/1 NL - in retrospect i misplayed this, how would you play it?

[ QUOTE ]
just fold the flop when a bad player raises and you have overcards. against the range of hands loose, passive players raise there you don't have nearly the odds to draw to overcards and, as with all overcard draws, your implied odds are slim to none.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. thanks for the feedback.

matt
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  #4  
Old 07-29-2005, 05:35 AM
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Default Re: $.50/1 NL - in retrospect i misplayed this, how would you play it?

I would simply check/call the flop. You're OOP with 2 overcards and a 2nd nut flush draw. Semi-bluffs don't work on tilting players. Semi-bluffs don't work on people who are trying to hit a hand and take you down. Semi-bluffs blind, with no info (OOP) are not always a good idea. I like to semi-bluff in LP or MP with a rock behind me. I think you should check this flop and then you'll A) draw for cheaper and B) guage the bet, and you could possibly check-raise here if they show enough weakness in the bet.

Pot control is important here. You said so yourself that you forgot that she would be pot committed...another peril of being OOP in NL hold'em. If you were in LP and she bet into you, and you thought of semi-bluff raising here on the flop, I think that you would have noticed her pot committment (if you raise), and that she would have to call anything on the turn/river if she made a hand at all on the flop.

Also: Her flop raise is indicative of a weaker hand that she's protecting. If I flopped a set here in position, I'm calling a ten dollar bet against an aggressive opponent (you). If I have a pair of 8's with a good kicker when I have you to overcards because of a late position PF raise, I'm going to re-raise. You made the right judgment on your outs on the turn.

When I read over your post, I thought she had A8 on the flop, or a suited connector (78) that she was protecting.

Hey, when all else fails...just you go ahead and hit your flush. If anyone asks why you called an all-in with a 2nd nut flush draw...just say you knew it was coming. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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  #5  
Old 07-29-2005, 05:45 AM
rheaume rheaume is offline
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Default Re: $.50/1 NL - in retrospect i misplayed this, how would you play it?

[ QUOTE ]
I would simply check/call the flop. You're OOP with 2 overcards and a 2nd nut flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

excellent point, i was just trying to buy the pot like i had the last 3 (or so) non-threatening flops heads up vs this player - with a just-under pot sized bet. i like your idea better though. heh.

keep em comin plz [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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  #6  
Old 07-29-2005, 05:54 AM
pzhon pzhon is offline
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Default Re: $.50/1 NL - in retrospect i misplayed this, how would you play it?

The flush draw and overcards make this hand too strong to fold. To avoid the turn difficulties, I'd just push on the flop over the raise. You'd like to pick up the pot against many weak hands that may fold to your push, and some hands may call that are big underdogs against you.
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  #7  
Old 07-29-2005, 06:03 AM
rheaume rheaume is offline
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Default Re: $.50/1 NL - in retrospect i misplayed this, how would you play it?

[ QUOTE ]
The flush draw and overcards make this hand too strong to fold. To avoid the turn difficulties, I'd just push on the flop over the raise. You'd like to pick up the pot against many weak hands that may fold to your push, and some hands may call that are big underdogs against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

interesting. i guess in my mind i was hoping to see one of those overs or a heart on the turn, and take it from there... i wasn't really thinking about what to do after that, which isnt something to be proud of... obviously with more chips if the other player went all in i have to fold if she goes all in.

i like your input on reraising all in on that flop, representing an overpair, but im not sure id be comfortable with that play.
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  #8  
Old 07-29-2005, 06:31 AM
Padster Padster is offline
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Default Re: $.50/1 NL - in retrospect i misplayed this, how would you play it?

I think you bet fold the flop. I don't like check fold as you already know she will fold if she does hit from your last few hands against her.

So the flop bet is fine. But she puts in a proper raise here that says she definitely has something (you know this because she's folded before to you). So now it's either shove or fold. A call is suicide. You don't know where you are at all (apart from being behind). You could be up against a set or possibly slow played high pair so I'm not counting my overcards as outs. You only comfortably have the flush as guaranteed outs.

Also you know a shove will come on the turn as your call looks weak. Unless of course the flush comes then she can get away from the hand.

So shove or fold? Shove is really playng for the flush imo. you're paying 50 to win 80. So that's a fold for me.

Give her the respect on this hand - try to get her to tell you her cards and (when you realise the garbage she's holding) take her chips over the next hour.
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  #9  
Old 07-29-2005, 06:37 AM
fimbulwinter fimbulwinter is offline
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Default Re: $.50/1 NL - in retrospect i misplayed this, how would you play it?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just fold the flop when a bad player raises and you have overcards. against the range of hands loose, passive players raise there you don't have nearly the odds to draw to overcards and, as with all overcard draws, your implied odds are slim to none.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. thanks for the feedback.

matt

[/ QUOTE ]

holy crap i just realized you had the flush draw too.

my previous advice was crap, you need to push this flop pretty much every time here against a normal opponent.

fim
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  #10  
Old 07-29-2005, 06:44 AM
Padster Padster is offline
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Default Forgot to say - fold equity

you don't have any to speak of.

she's a short stack, heavily if not fully pot committed, possibly on tilt, who you have shoved off previous pots (which she has to suspect)
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