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  #1  
Old 07-14-2005, 06:02 AM
Pocket Trips Pocket Trips is offline
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Default Should you respect annoying minumum PFR\'s

I have been playing NLHE as my main game the past month or so now and by far I think the dumbest thing I see people doing over and over again is make a minimum PFR.

I really don't see what this accomplishes??? From my perspective all it does is give away the strength of your hand without driving anyone out of the hand. Anyone who was going to call the minimum bet is almost certainly still going to come into the pot for a minimum raise.

I would think that if you have a good hand worth raising you would want to raise enough to drive out marginal hands thus building a bigger pot with your good hand as well as cut down the # of opponents you are facing.

Am I thinking correctly here or is there some super genius strategy at work here that my dumb noob mind can't comprehend???

Assuming the majority of the people who make this move are idiots. What is the best way to exploit this mistake. I have not let this affect my starting hand selection. I still play suited connectors when facing this etc. If I am in position with a good hand that I don't normally raise with OOP (like A-J, A-Q) and someone is dumb enough to do this from the blinds I generally reraise to about 6 times the blinds to try to get some dead $$ in the pot and also 2 draw out any REAL strong hands into giving themselves away asap.

If i have a hand like suited connectors I just call and then bet into the raiser if I hit the flop strong ( 2pair or better) hoping for a reraise and then push my made hand into his over-card reraise.

Any suggestions on how to better deal with plays like this or am I playing them correctly as I described?
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  #2  
Old 07-14-2005, 06:29 AM
Macdaddy Warsaw Macdaddy Warsaw is offline
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Default Re: Should you respect annoying minumum PFR\'s

I read through quickly but couldn't see exactly what you thought a min PFR meant. Quite frankly, I've found it can be anything, with a tendancy towards small-medium pocket pairs and suited connectors, but also some unsuited broadway cards and the like.

That said, I don't think you should change your strategy in any way when faced with one. If you have a prospective hand, you should usually be calling just like you would otherwise. If you have a raising hand, raise away.

I've always just thought they were a way to pump a hand that could flop very big or flop nothing at all most of the time.
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  #3  
Old 07-14-2005, 06:38 AM
MoDOH MoDOH is offline
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Default Re: Should you respect annoying minumum PFR\'s

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't see what this accomplishes??? From my perspective all it does is give away the strength of your hand without driving anyone out of the hand. Anyone who was going to call the minimum bet is almost certainly still going to come into the pot for a minimum raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are completely right about this. The min.raise preflop doesnīt so much give away the strength as it signals to the rest of the table. "Hey look at me I donīt have a clue about what I am doing here so if you guys could be so kind and take all my money,ok?"
More often than not the min. raise means that Villain has some kind of crap Ace on his hands. This is player dependant of course...

[ QUOTE ]
I would think that if you have a good hand worth raising you would want to raise enough to drive out marginal hands thus building a bigger pot with your good hand as well as cut down the # of opponents you are facing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup... pretty much...

[ QUOTE ]
Am I thinking correctly here or is there some super genius strategy at work here that my dumb noob mind can't comprehend???

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope... you have just stumbled upon one of the main characteristics of a PP fish...

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming the majority of the people who make this move are idiots. What is the best way to exploit this mistake. I have not let this affect my starting hand selection. I still play suited connectors when facing this etc. If I am in position with a good hand that I don't normally raise with OOP (like A-J, A-Q) and someone is dumb enough to do this from the blinds I generally reraise to about 6 times the blinds to try to get some dead $$ in the pot and also 2 draw out any REAL strong hands into giving themselves away asap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it shouldnīt affect your starting hands at all really. If the fish has a small stack and you are the first one in with little hope of limping behind you then you could drop your weakest SC. other than that... gambool...
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  #4  
Old 07-14-2005, 06:46 AM
Ojo_Rojo Ojo_Rojo is offline
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Default Re: Should you respect annoying minumum PFR\'s

I play pretty much in the same way as you do, my hand range does not tighten up due to minraises.

If I have position on the min-raiser, I tend to reraise to 7-8BB, and fire on any flop. If im OOP with respect to the min raiser, I may smoothcall and fire on any flop if we're heads-up.

These are with my normal range of hands, but I add a few more hands if the opponent is passive, and will always fold on the flop when he misses. Against the right sort of players, this is +EV with just about any two cards.

Just make sure there's no nasty surprises coming from anyone else at the table.

Ojo_Rojo
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  #5  
Old 07-14-2005, 06:55 AM
Rosie5 Rosie5 is offline
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Default Re: Should you respect annoying minumum PFR\'s

ugh this brings back painful memories at 25$ NL

guy utg Miniraises, I look down at red kings and make it like 3$ total. He reraises me big and I figure it's just a resteal or some garbage I can't see how I'm beat with a hand he miniraises, so I decide for 25$ I'll push, I've been running good anyway if he can show me aces hes got it.

Of course he had them [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

See if he's miniraising a lot or not very often, I think that's the determnining factor.
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  #6  
Old 07-14-2005, 08:37 AM
Padster Padster is offline
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Default Re: Should you respect annoying minumum PFR\'s

I don't think you guys should write off this play as defining a noob fish. It may well be something a fish does but there are lots of other players who like the move too.

Personally I hate it as I agree it doesn't give you any advantage but I've had lengthy discussions with a good winning player who uses it.

The theory is that if you min raise on KQ, AQ (poss AJ) then poorly kicked A's will come with you. This kinda stacks up with what you're saying as with better kicked A's you'll be raising him PF so he can get away. You don't come along hoping to get paid as the relatively small PF bet isn't forcing enough players out.

Then on the flop if he hits then he reckons to be ahead as if any poorer kicked A's also hit they may well figure to be ahead. Granted there's an inherent assumption that your opponents aren't too hot but he swears he regularly gets paid by worse A's.

The other line of thought is the medium pp as mentioned in an earlier post. Again there is logic behind this line as it does create a larger pot if you do hit.

For me I think it's a pretty passive approach - if your pp is worth playing for a raise then make a proper raise so you at least have the opportunity to win the flop when you miss.


But the point I want to make is that a fish is a fish anyway - there will be lots of clues as to his ability.
You're setting yourself up for a painfest if you class every min PFR player as a fish - cos sometimes they're not.

The advantage to you is that you can bracket their hand pretty easily if you know thats what they're doing. And make sure if they come out all guns blazing on that T72r flop that you have TT in the hole before you go along for the ride!!
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  #7  
Old 07-14-2005, 09:09 AM
Ghazban Ghazban is offline
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Default Re: Should you respect annoying minumum PFR\'s

You're more or less on target. There are a couple other things to consider, though:

1) Short stack minraisers. These guys sit down with 20BB, minraise a big hand, then can comfortably push most flops. You don't have very good implied odds against them and some of them are only minraising premium hands anyway so reraising a hand you like to raise with (but not call a real raise with) can get you in trouble. They are usually pretty easy to spot but I generally avoid cold calling a new-to-the-table short stack minraise unless I've got the goods. If a few other people with deeper stacks call, overcalling lots of hands you would limp with is fine so long as you recognize you will likely only get to see the flop before shorty pushes in.

2) People who minraise a huge range of hands from all positions but never make non-minimum preflop raises. These guys are fantastic on your left as they let you limp/reraise lots of hands from lots of positions and trap a lot of money in the pot from people who called the minraise but won't call your LRR.

3) People who minraise sometimes and make larger raises sometimes. Once you can figure out what their minraising standards are vs. their larger raise standards, you can profitably play more hands against them both when they minraise and when they make a larger raise (the reasons for this should be self-evident).
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  #8  
Old 07-14-2005, 12:33 PM
Pocket Trips Pocket Trips is offline
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Default Re: Should you respect annoying minumum PFR\'s

Thanks for all the helpful replies. This is just one of those things that drives me crazy at the tables and i have to resist typing into the chat box "THIS IS NOT LIMIT POKER", especially when u get 2 or more idiots who min raise 4 times before the flop.

I agree that it does not ALWAYS indicate a fish but in these $25 nl games, and even some of the $50 games, about 80% of the time it is as good as holding a sign that says "I'm a moran."
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  #9  
Old 07-14-2005, 12:36 PM
Ghazban Ghazban is offline
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Default Re: Should you respect annoying minumum PFR\'s

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that it does not ALWAYS indicate a fish...

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never seen a non-donk minraise preflop in any game up to the 3/6 blind game on Party (and I only have limited experience in the 3/6 game, primarily I'm in the 1/2 and 2/4 games). You would not get yourself in trouble if you just assumed anybody who minraised preflop at small stakes was a donk. Now, figuring out exactly what kind of donk they are is a little different...
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  #10  
Old 07-14-2005, 12:42 PM
vulturesrow vulturesrow is offline
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Default Re: Should you respect annoying minumum PFR\'s

My basic rule of thumb with minraisers, especially those that I dont have a read on their hand range for the miniraise, is to treat it like a limp. It has worked out well for me and its true joy to stack off the guy who let you in cheap with his "tricky" minraise with AA.
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