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#11
10-16-2005, 11:10 AM
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Re: Rights and Absolute Morality
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also I don't see how it follows from 'it is wrong to do something to someone' to 'people have a right not to have that done to them'. [/ QUOTE ] This is backwards from what I'm trying to say, People have a right not to have this done to them, thus it it wrong to do that. [/ QUOTE ] That seems like a good basis for constructing legal frameworks but it doesn't follow that no rights mean no AM as there could be other reasons why something is wrong. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Not even 'merely'. Morality is (imo) a part of self-interest. The question is which part and what is its nature? [/ QUOTE ] I'm beggining to think that all of morality is rational self-interest. Do you think that there is any situation where someone is being ethical without any regard to his/her own interest? [/ QUOTE ] No I don't. Where I disagree with some others is the idea that morality is some sort of rational juggling of self-interest. Morality is an intrinsic part of self-interest. chez [/ QUOTE ] I find a wallet with $1000 in it. I return it to the man who lost it. Am I being moral? What self-interest am I fulfilling? [/ QUOTE ] I care about the well-being of the man who lost the wallet. I want the man to not suffer. The man will suffer if he loses his wallet Therefore I want to return the wallet. It is in my self-interest to do what I want. Therefore it is in my self-interest to return the wallet. (I may or may not care enough to overcome my desire for $1000) chez 
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#12
10-16-2005, 11:32 AM
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Re: Rights and Absolute Morality
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[ QUOTE ] Where I disagree with some others is the idea that morality is some sort of rational juggling of self-interest. Morality is an intrinsic part of self-interest. [/ QUOTE ] Could you expand on this a ton. [/ QUOTE ] The lost wallet seems a good example. What's in your self interest in that example. Many people claim its things like: keep the money; live in a society where my wallet would be returned; avoid trouble. Then they might reason that the best way to achieve these self-interested goals is to return the wallet. So morality appears to come out of the juggling of one's non-moral self-interested goals. I disagree. My list of self-interested goals would include a desire for the man not to suffer. Then I also have to decide what to do to best achieve these goals but its nothing more than a decision making problem. chez
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#13
10-16-2005, 12:04 PM
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Re: Rights and Absolute Morality
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Where I disagree with some others is the idea that morality is some sort of rational juggling of self-interest. Morality is an intrinsic part of self-interest. [/ QUOTE ] Could you expand on this a ton. [/ QUOTE ] The lost wallet seems a good example. What's in your self interest in that example. Many people claim its things like: keep the money; live in a society where my wallet would be returned; avoid trouble. Then they might reason that the best way to achieve these self-interested goals is to return the wallet. So morality appears to come out of the juggling of one's non-moral self-interested goals. I disagree. My list of self-interested goals would include a desire for the man not to suffer. Then I also have to decide what to do to best achieve these goals but its nothing more than a decision making problem. chez [/ QUOTE ]I'm not buying it yet. The reason why you care maybe because of a self-interst in caring. But that part isn't really what I would like expanded, it is this part [ QUOTE ] Morality is an intrinsic part of self-interest. [/ QUOTE ] Because I took it to mean that there are parts of self interest out side of morality. And that there are parts of morality out side of self interest. What part of morality is outside of self interest?
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#14
10-16-2005, 12:16 PM
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Re: Rights and Absolute Morality
[ QUOTE ]
But that part isn't really what I would like expanded, it is this part Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Morality is an intrinsic part of self-interest. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because I took it to mean that there are parts of self interest out side of morality. And that there are parts of morality out side of self interest. What part of morality is outside of self interest? [/ QUOTE ] I don't think any part of morality is outside of self-interest. Lots of things that are part of self-interest are not moral, wanting to keep the $1000 could be entirely non-moral (although you could constuct examples where you need the $1000 for moral purposes). Roughly, I would define the moral parts of self-interest as those that are about others. chez
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#15
10-16-2005, 01:04 PM
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Re: Rights and Absolute Morality
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] But that part isn't really what I would like expanded, it is this part Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Morality is an intrinsic part of self-interest. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because I took it to mean that there are parts of self interest out side of morality. And that there are parts of morality out side of self interest. What part of morality is outside of self interest? [/ QUOTE ] I don't think any part of morality is outside of self-interest. Lots of things that are part of self-interest are not moral, wanting to keep the $1000 could be entirely non-moral (although you could constuct examples where you need the $1000 for moral purposes). Roughly, I would define the moral parts of self-interest as those that are about others. chez [/ QUOTE ]Would I be correct to say that your view of morality generally creates a conflict between ones non-morality based self-interest. Or is there some overlap in morality and self interest? How much of morality is overlap with non moral self-interest?
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#16
10-16-2005, 01:19 PM
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Re: Rights and Absolute Morality
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] But that part isn't really what I would like expanded, it is this part Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Morality is an intrinsic part of self-interest. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because I took it to mean that there are parts of self interest out side of morality. And that there are parts of morality out side of self interest. What part of morality is outside of self interest? [/ QUOTE ] I don't think any part of morality is outside of self-interest. Lots of things that are part of self-interest are not moral, wanting to keep the $1000 could be entirely non-moral (although you could constuct examples where you need the $1000 for moral purposes). Roughly, I would define the moral parts of self-interest as those that are about others. chez [/ QUOTE ]Would I be correct to say that your view of morality generally creates a conflict between ones non-morality based self-interest. Or is there some overlap in morality and self interest? How much of morality is overlap with non moral self-interest? [/ QUOTE ] Don't most goals conflict with some other goal. Most choices involve giving something up, don't they? chez
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#17
10-16-2005, 01:28 PM
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Re: Rights and Absolute Morality
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] But that part isn't really what I would like expanded, it is this part Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Morality is an intrinsic part of self-interest. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because I took it to mean that there are parts of self interest out side of morality. And that there are parts of morality out side of self interest. What part of morality is outside of self interest? [/ QUOTE ] I don't think any part of morality is outside of self-interest. Lots of things that are part of self-interest are not moral, wanting to keep the $1000 could be entirely non-moral (although you could constuct examples where you need the $1000 for moral purposes). Roughly, I would define the moral parts of self-interest as those that are about others. chez [/ QUOTE ]Would I be correct to say that your view of morality generally creates a conflict between ones non-morality based self-interest. Or is there some overlap in morality and self interest? How much of morality is overlap with non moral self-interest? [/ QUOTE ] Don't most goals conflict with some other goal. Most choices involve giving something up, don't they? chez [/ QUOTE ]Chez, not really.
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#19
10-16-2005, 01:35 PM
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Re: Rights and Absolute Morality
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Yes, really, Doug. How do you say otherwise? [/ QUOTE ]My goals are rock solid principles, they are what guide me in every action in life. If they where in conflict I'd be very confused.
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#20
10-16-2005, 01:35 PM
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Re: Rights and Absolute Morality
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] But that part isn't really what I would like expanded, it is this part Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Morality is an intrinsic part of self-interest. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because I took it to mean that there are parts of self interest out side of morality. And that there are parts of morality out side of self interest. What part of morality is outside of self interest? [/ QUOTE ] I don't think any part of morality is outside of self-interest. Lots of things that are part of self-interest are not moral, wanting to keep the $1000 could be entirely non-moral (although you could constuct examples where you need the $1000 for moral purposes). Roughly, I would define the moral parts of self-interest as those that are about others. chez [/ QUOTE ]Would I be correct to say that your view of morality generally creates a conflict between ones non-morality based self-interest. Or is there some overlap in morality and self interest? How much of morality is overlap with non moral self-interest? [/ QUOTE ] Don't most goals conflict with some other goal. Most choices involve giving something up, don't they? chez [/ QUOTE ]Chez, not really. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what your point is. Someone wants to smoke but doesn't because they want to be healthy. They want to lie in bed but get up because they want to earn money. They wants the $1000 but gives the wallet back because they don't want the owner to suffer. Goals conflict. We make decisions. chez
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