Donating on a higher level - did I play this wrong?

[sexdrugsmoney]

Hey guys, I need to know if my chase was justified here or not, your help as always is appreciated.

7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.88 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]_calls
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]_folds
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]_brings-in__calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]_completes
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]_calls
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]_folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]_calls

4th Street - (11.88 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]_calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]_calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]_double bets
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]_folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]_calls

5th Street - (14.44 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]_bets
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]_calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]_checks_calls
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]_checks_calls

6th Street - (24.44 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]_bets
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]_calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]_checks_folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]_checks_calls

River - (33.44 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx_bets
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]_calls
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx_folds

Total pot: (38.44 BB)

Results: <font color="white">
Main Pot: $60.75 | Rake: $3

Seat 1: [ Ah Qc Qd 7c 7d 9s 5c ] [ two pairs, queens and sevens -- Ah,Qc,Qd,7c,7d ]

Hero: [ 7s 6s 3s Ks 8d Jh Kh ] [ a pair of kings -- Ks,Kh,Jh,8d,7s ]</font>

[bholdr]

since you eventually saw the other eights, you know that your opponent didn't have trips.

BUT...

you made several big maistakes in this hand:

you still should've folded, for several reasons. First, chasing a flush when another player pairs their doorcard is almost always a mistake, unless you have reads and/or notes that allow you to be fairly sure that the opponent in question does not have the set. Second, there was a smoothcall behind the double bet, which, to me, shows incredible strength- i'd be thinking a set of jacks at that point- making me very ready to fold any draw except an OESFD. Third, even if A: you are sure he has no set, and B: there wasn't a smoothcall, your correct play here is to raise- there is no better way to take control of the action than raising a double bet (some here debate that play, but i like it, and it fits my overall pattern/plan of relentless, fearless aggression- if i am in a pot and there is a paired door and a double bet, i'm either raising or folding... mostly folding, the exception being if i have a MONSTER). you will get a free card on fifth if you make this move and your opponent (with the presumed set of eights) does not fill up, or only had two pair to begin with.

and you made one final, really big mistake- calling on the river. NO NO NO NO!!! you are badly beaten with only one pair. BADLY. never call with one pair on the end if an opponent pairs a doorcard and shows strength. save yourself a bet, already; the one time in a hundred where you'll snap off a really ballsy bluff will never pay for all the bad calls. HOWEVER... if you could reliably put him on two pair (you cannot, here), it might be time for a ballsy river bluff of your own, but not as low as 2/4.

At 2/4 the opponents are likely all fish. don't YOU go being one, too. re-read 7csfap before you play 2/4 again. sry if this sounds harsh, but you need to hear it. LEARN, STUDY, POST (at least you're doing that), DON'T BE A FISH, you are a 2+2er... remember that; youre almost obligated to learn and study hard and represent. you can do it! read 7csfap! [/pep talk]

GL

B

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
since you eventually saw the other eights, you know that your opponent didn't have trips.

BUT...

you made several big maistakes in this hand:

you still should've folded, for several reasons. First, chasing a flush when another player pairs their doorcard is almost always a mistake, unless you have reads and/or notes that allow you to be fairly sure that the opponent in question does not have the set. Second, there was a smoothcall behind the double bet, which, to me, shows incredible strength- i'd be thinking a set of jacks at that point- making me very ready to fold any draw except an OESFD. Third, even if A: you are sure he has no set, and B: there wasn't a smoothcall, your correct play here is to raise- there is no better way to take control of the action than raising a double bet (some here debate that play, but i like it, and it fits my overall pattern/plan of relentless, fearless aggression- if i am in a pot and there is a paired door and a double bet, i'm either raising or folding... mostly folding, the exception being if i have a MONSTER). you will get a free card on fifth if you make this move and your opponent (with the presumed set of eights) does not fill up, or only had two pair to begin with.

and you made one final, really big mistake- calling on the river. NO NO NO NO!!! you are badly beaten with only one pair. BADLY. never call with one pair on the end if an opponent pairs a doorcard and shows strength. save yourself a bet, already; the one time in a hundred where you'll snap off a really ballsy bluff will never pay for all the bad calls. HOWEVER... if you could reliably put him on two pair (you cannot, here), it might be time for a ballsy river bluff of your own, but not as low as 2/4.

At 2/4 the opponents are likely all fish. don't YOU go being one, too. re-read 7csfap before you play 2/4 again. sry if this sounds harsh, but you need to hear it. LEARN, STUDY, POST (at least you're doing that), DON'T BE A FISH, you are a 2+2er... remember that; youre almost obligated to learn and study hard and represent. you can do it! read 7csfap! [/pep talk]

GL

B

[/ QUOTE ]

Many Thanks for your reply bholdr, you have no need to be sorry, you are trying to prevent me losing money!

I have a couple of questions though:

1) Do you always throw away a flush draw when someone is showing an open pair?

2) Was I 'laying the odds' on 5th St?

3) I have 7CS4AP but I am hesitant to read it for the limits I am playing. I'm currently re-reading Roy West's book (ducks from AndyB) and in it he says 7CS4AP is for higher limits - 15/30 etc.

If this is wrong, and 7CS4AP applies to low levels like 2/4 and 3/6 I will read it.

The scare I have is one I have experienced with Low Limit Hold'em. If I play Low Limit Hold'em like HP4AP suggests my fancy plays are for naught and I can't beat the game as I'm giving my opponents to much credit. The flipside is without reading SSH, I don't give my opponents any credit and bleed money.

In truth I can't play Low Limit Hold'em anymore until I read SSH.


Regarding never calling with one pair, my intention here is not to argue with you but ask one question:

Is the following a rarity at Party 2/4 or the norm? (if it's the norm I have to play it the way I did right?)

(On this next hand, I made a crying call on 6th, a not so crying call on 7th ... yet I still thought I was up against two pair possibly, but I put the guy on a straight draw and didn't believe he made it)

7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (7.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (9.00 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (14.00 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

River - (18.00 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

Total pot: (22.00 BB)

Results: <font color="white">
Main Pot: $36.50 | Rake: $1.50

Seat 3: [ 9c Td 8h 7h 5c 5d 2s ] [ a pair of fives -- Td,9c,8h,5c,5d ]</font>

Many Thanks,
SDM

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
since you eventually saw the other eights, you know that your opponent didn't have trips.

BUT...

you made several big maistakes in this hand:

you still should've folded, for several reasons. First, chasing a flush when another player pairs their doorcard is almost always a mistake, unless you have reads and/or notes that allow you to be fairly sure that the opponent in question does not have the set. Second, there was a smoothcall behind the double bet, which, to me, shows incredible strength- i'd be thinking a set of jacks at that point- making me very ready to fold any draw except an OESFD. Third, even if A: you are sure he has no set, and B: there wasn't a smoothcall, your correct play here is to raise- there is no better way to take control of the action than raising a double bet (some here debate that play, but i like it, and it fits my overall pattern/plan of relentless, fearless aggression- if i am in a pot and there is a paired door and a double bet, i'm either raising or folding... mostly folding, the exception being if i have a MONSTER). you will get a free card on fifth if you make this move and your opponent (with the presumed set of eights) does not fill up, or only had two pair to begin with.

and you made one final, really big mistake- calling on the river. NO NO NO NO!!! you are badly beaten with only one pair. BADLY. never call with one pair on the end if an opponent pairs a doorcard and shows strength. save yourself a bet, already; the one time in a hundred where you'll snap off a really ballsy bluff will never pay for all the bad calls. HOWEVER... if you could reliably put him on two pair (you cannot, here), it might be time for a ballsy river bluff of your own, but not as low as 2/4.

At 2/4 the opponents are likely all fish. don't YOU go being one, too. re-read 7csfap before you play 2/4 again. sry if this sounds harsh, but you need to hear it. LEARN, STUDY, POST (at least you're doing that), DON'T BE A FISH, you are a 2+2er... remember that; youre almost obligated to learn and study hard and represent. you can do it! read 7csfap! [/pep talk]

GL

B

[/ QUOTE ]

Many Thanks for your reply bholdr, you have no need to be sorry, you are trying to prevent me losing money!

I have a couple of questions though:

1) Do you always throw away a flush draw when someone is showing an open pair?

2) Was I 'laying the odds' on 5th St?

3) I have 7CS4AP but I am hesitant to read it for the limits I am playing. I'm currently re-reading Roy West's book (ducks from AndyB) and in it he says 7CS4AP is for higher limits - 15/30 etc.

If this is wrong, and 7CS4AP applies to low levels like 2/4 and 3/6 I will read it.

The scare I have is one I have experienced with Low Limit Hold'em. If I play Low Limit Hold'em like HP4AP suggests my fancy plays are for naught and I can't beat the game as I'm giving my opponents to much credit. The flipside is without reading SSH, I don't give my opponents any credit and bleed money.

In truth I can't play Low Limit Hold'em anymore until I read SSH.


Regarding never calling with one pair, my intention here is not to argue with you but ask one question:

Is the following a rarity at Party 2/4 or the norm? (if it's the norm I have to play it the way I did right?)

(On this next hand, I made a crying call on 6th, a not so crying call on 7th ... yet I still thought I was up against two pair possibly, but I put the guy on a straight draw and didn't believe he made it)

7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (7.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (9.00 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (14.00 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

River - (18.00 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

Total pot: (22.00 BB)

Results: <font color="white">
Main Pot: $36.50 | Rake: $1.50

Seat 3: [ 9c Td 8h 7h 5c 5d 2s ] [ a pair of fives -- Td,9c,8h,5c,5d ]</font>

Many Thanks,
SDM

[/ QUOTE ]

raise 3rd with your QQJ in this hand.

in the first hand, I agree almost completely with the first post. I would lean towards raising though with your live 4 flush and see what develops. You really can't call that river though, as you are clearly beaten. Probably true in the 2nd hand you posted too.

When I first read 7CSFAP I think it hurt my game because I was trying to do things that just dont work in a 2/4 game. After I gave it a second read though I started picking out things that would work well and in the long run I became a winning player. I would read it, but always keep in the back of your mind that some of the advice simply won't work in a low limit game. I would also strongly recommend TOP if you havent read that yet...there is a lot of stud specific examples and general theory that applies to all games that you cannot do without.

That all being said, I leave for vegas in an hour and I hope I don't lose my whole bankroll over the weekend [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[sexdrugsmoney]

Cheers PoorLawyer, guess I'm just going to have to fold one pair on the river then.

Good luck in Vegas.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Cheers PoorLawyer, guess I'm just going to have to fold one pair on the river then.

Good luck in Vegas.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the point you want to take from his post is that your opponents call of the paired door card is a very strong call... Its saying "I've got at least a big pair I don't want to let go of." (Against sane opponents.)

[jon_1van]

You can't always fold it, but can't call opponents that called a double bet on 4th when not showing a pair AND THEN added a pair. That is suicide.

[bholdr]

Given the size of the pot and what appears to be a solid read on the hero's part, i'd say the river call with unimproved queens was correct. the opponent will bluff more than one time in ten, i'd think. i think you actually played that hand about right, sexdrugsmoney...

one more thing:

[ QUOTE ]
Many Thanks for your reply bholdr, you have no need to be sorry, you are trying to prevent me losing money!

[/ QUOTE ]
bad thinking here, I am trying to help you WIN MORE money... right? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


okay, i lied, here's more- I generally think that people should not read poker books under the assumption that 'this book applies to these limits', 'this other book applies to this game or that game', etc... it's much better to just read them all and put your own strategy together to fit whatever the specific game conditions may arise, and the way to do so is to have a deep and solid understanging of ALL types of games. read SS and SS2, HLSP and 7csfap, even west, and especially TOP... it takes a long time, but it's far better to have a theroetical understanding of a game than just a situational/rote understanding. imo.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
okay, i lied, here's more- I generally think that people should not read poker books under the assumption that 'this book applies to these limits', 'this other book applies to this game or that game', etc... it's much better to just read them all and put your own strategy together to fit whatever the specific game conditions may arise, and the way to do so is to have a deep and solid understanging of ALL types of games. read SS and SS2, HLSP and 7csfap, even west, and especially TOP... it takes a long time, but it's far better to have a theroetical understanding of a game than just a situational/rote understanding. imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with that.

[vintage_sara]

I don't mind the way you played the hand at all...I can justify the chase here. The river call is somewhat disconcerting with only kings however. But I don't know the players or how the game is playing.