Early position KQ, Party 15/30

[ggbman]

I think playing KQ in EP is a marginal call, but not as clear cut of a fold as you make it. I agree with the logic of not playing it, but the problem is that there are so many inferior players that play stakes that they shouldnt these days and pay off top pair with bad hands. Obviously the reason to muck KQ is for siutations much like this. But do keep in mind the general quality of players at party before you say always muck this hand in EP, it depends on the table you are sitting at. If there are 2 people paying off rivers with 2nd pair or playing 10 10 the same way as UTG played AQ that hand, then your starting hands should be adjusted accordingly in my opinion. Again, i really think it is opponent dependant.

[Kevin J]

I defy you to show any kind of proof that KQ is not profitable in the hands of a good player even from early position.

You limp with the hand in order to entice players to come in behind you with worse kings and queens (similar considerations apply to limping (instead of raising), with AQ). You raise when they'll come anyway regardless whether it's 1 or 2 bets. The reason NOT to raise is if you're only likely to get play from better hands, such as AA,KK,QQ or AK, AQ.

Why wouldn't it be profitable? Do you really think kicker problems will come in to play often enough when you flop top pair to make the hand unplayable? Do you think the straights KQ will make are too likely to be beaten? That's ridiculous.

KQ probably should be folded in the toughest of games, but I've only encountered a few of these in the 15-30 on Party. They do exist, but are very rare.

[QuikSand]

Well, I appreciate the numerous replies, even if they are frequently contradictory. I realize that the game is not black-and-white, and that there is logic behind each of the various strategies being argued here. Just following the thinking is helpful to me, and I'll take the potshots along the way, if that's the toll to be paid for the ride.

Thanks for the many thoughts, and to nearly all the posters.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
the replys you received are scary. while a few were good many were bad information. you toss KQ in early position 10 handed. it had a neg exp.


[/ QUOTE ]
You're dead wrong on this one:

10-player EV by hand and position

Note that the above stats include both good and bad games, so the actual EV if you use proper game selection should be higher.

[ QUOTE ]

as for AQ in many games you should NOT raise UTG with 10 people.


[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong again. In fact, not raising AQo UTG with 10 people is absolutely criminal advice for most loose games. And if you're not playing in a loose game....get a table change.

[ QUOTE ]

also if you have pokertracker, look at KQ in early position.


[/ QUOTE ]
I did. I only have 60,000 hands in my database, but I filtered it to include all the KQo hands where I'm UTG, UTG+1, or UTG+2, there are exactly 10 people dealt in, and I raise. That's a pretty restrictive search, so the result is only 44 hands. Not enough for statistical significance, but for whatever it's worth, the sample average BB/100 is 0.13. IMHO, the true mean is higher.

[ QUOTE ]

one more thing QJo is a hand that is trash. no good player limps with it. in most games the only time to play QJo is if it is folded to you in late position and then if you play - you raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you that QJo in EP is usually trash. And yes, I'll open-raise with it in LP. However, I'll limp with it in LP if there are limpers in front of me. And QJs is a whole other matter, in that you can often limp with it in EP as well.

Anyway, I hope this is the end of this discussion.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
Like the others said, UTG likely doesn't have AQ or KQ because he should have raised those preflop if he's really a 2+2er. Similarly, you should have raised your KQ preflop!

But anyway, I'm actually putting UTG on QJs, so I think you're good. Still, I would have 3-bet the flop to try to clear out all the flush draws or at least make them pay more. But your line isn't bad either. The only possible hand you lose to is AQ, and if he has that, he's a pussy.

[/ QUOTE ]

IS it really SOP these days to raise with KQo in EP?

-Scott

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Like the others said, UTG likely doesn't have AQ or KQ because he should have raised those preflop if he's really a 2+2er. Similarly, you should have raised your KQ preflop!

But anyway, I'm actually putting UTG on QJs, so I think you're good. Still, I would have 3-bet the flop to try to clear out all the flush draws or at least make them pay more. But your line isn't bad either. The only possible hand you lose to is AQ, and if he has that, he's a pussy.

[/ QUOTE ]

IS it really SOP these days to raise with KQo in EP?


[/ QUOTE ]
I seem to remember a long thread on this a year ago with the consensus being that yes, it's SOP. Regardless, I do it every time.

[JasonP530]

limping with AQ is a play done to vary. If someone limps AQ UTG or UTG+1, it is something odd, as most people would raise. As for raising/calling/folding KQo, depends on the game. If youre likely to get 3 bet, then throw it away. If someone has limped, call and try to hit a K or Q and get paid by the field. First one in is tougher, as you dont want to be raised by a late position player in a small pot.

[LarsVegas]

You seriously mean KQo is a clear UTG raising hand? While I'd say it's fold, I will stretch myself to agree that it's not a disaster to raise utg either, just a tiny mistake, which even winning players make several of.

I just can't imagine raising KQo utg being profitable in anything other than tables closely resembling a play money one. And yes, the 44 hand sample is really too small.

lars

[Your Mom]

I really don't know what tables you guys play at, but at the tables I play at KQo is a pretty good hand. I mean, how many hands are better than KQ? You don't think people will play worse kings and queens? Then you are at the wrong table.

[amulet]

kevin, hold em is a game of position. very few hands have an pos ev up front. with so many players still to act it is often raised behind you. you want proof, look at your pokertracker. if you want to play KQo up front in a 10 handed game, and maybe raise with it, i'd love you in my game. loose a few players and it is playable.