Is this too weak? I'm trying to get better.

fiyah · #1 06-11-2005, 02:46 PM

I'm not sure if folding here I'm losing money in the long run or not. Only possible holding I put raiser on turn on was A/4 which is pretty likely.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO raises, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

River: (9.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, CO bets, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

SpaceAce · #2 06-11-2005, 02:50 PM

A) You are NOT always behind here
B) If MP2 just calls, you are getting about 5:1 to fill up those times you are behind and you will collect two bets or more on the river nearly every time.

SpaceAce

PokerSparky · #3 06-11-2005, 02:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Only possible holding I put raiser on turn on was A/4 which is pretty likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can never hand read with this sort of certainty.

Even if he did have a 4, you have outs to fill up on the river. I'm not folding the river UI either.

brettbrettr · #4 06-11-2005, 03:04 PM

Raise the flop. Yes, very weak.

cjhellm · #5 06-11-2005, 03:21 PM

Bet the flop. At the very least check raise it.
It looks like you're beat but I don't think you can fold that turn, especially considering you have draws to a full house.

Do you have any reads? CO called two cold pf, and you're putting him on A4 without a read?

MisterKing · #6 06-11-2005, 03:36 PM

You have the best hand an amazing % of the time on the flop (probably over 95% of the time), so push your equity edge and just value raise. With a set, you don't even want these guys to fold... you want them to continue chasing what is very likely to be a second-best hand, and pay through the nose while doing so.

So, my preferred line is either:
A.) Bet-call the flop, since MP2 will very likely raise for you. This has the added benefit of facing CO with two cold on the flop, a lose-lose situation for him. Assuming MP2 does raise your flop bet, and you just call, you can then check/raise the turn with great effect. You're really worried about almost nothing on the turn... a very small % he'll catch a big broadway card to get set-over-set, but if you want to improve, you're just going to will yourself not to see these monsters. IF you think MP2 will raise you again if you lead the turn on a "stop'n'go," then by all means ABSOLUTELY lead the turn and 3-bet him when its back to you.
B.) Check-raise the frop. This has the effect of giving you "the lead" in the hand, which is important, but it may also scare off action and pump up the pot at a time when the bets are small, rather than large. Doing so ay offer your opponent correct odds to draw in some spots, which is bad... but here I don't think its much of a concern. If you C/R the flop and he just calls your C/R, then you need to lead the rest of the hand, since opponent may check behind in fear if you check to him again.

On the turn, once you've check-called the flop, you MUST start to raise and re-raise for value. Check-raising now seems best, and cap it if you're 3-bet. Any hand that beats you can be drawn out on, and many hands you beat will 3-bet your C/R (AA, KK, etc.). A check-3-bet by you at the turn would have been great, and I gather a high % of the time it would be capped after you... which you'd call.

The river is a brick, and a great card for you. It completes no other hands, and if you've been aggressive thus far, TT has already folded, meaning your set is good. Get as many bets in as you can, MAYBE slowing down if its 3-bet again. But you cannot fold, under any circumstance. See a showdown!

MisterKing · #7 06-11-2005, 03:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop. At the very least check raise it.
It looks like you're beat but I don't think you can fold that turn, especially considering you have draws to a full house.

Do you have any reads? CO called two cold pf, and you're putting him on A4 without a read?

[/ QUOTE ]

Beat BY WHAT? Set over set? That's a pretty narrow read! There are a f*ckton of other hands that make CO's move at the turn, including overpairs, some big heart frush draws, maybe TPTK, 33, and several two-pair hands like 76. Hero NEEDS to 3-bet given his flop line. If he gets capped, then he can maybe (maybe) consider slowing on the river.

fiyah · #8 06-11-2005, 03:44 PM

Everyone is right I did play this hand horribly. I felt that way also after it was played. I guess its just one of those moments that I've let the past 2 hours make me weak after seeing bad beat after bad beat. Either way I did play this hand wrong.

jjacky · #9 06-13-2005, 09:50 AM

a rule of thumb: never fold a set before the river in limit poker!

that rule isn't always correct of course, but almost always. exceptions: 4 to a straight flush on the board and heavy action, or you are pretty sure that you are caught in a raising war between a higher set and a pat hand (straight or flush).

if you are up against a higher set, you are in bad shape and you will lose much money, but there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. if you are up against a straight of flush, you have 10 outs. almost any pot offers odds good enough to justify a call.