To Those Successful MTT'ers: a Difficult Question about Stealing

[XChamp]

I have played a lot of MTT's in the past 8 months. Although my luck not been that great, I still have managed to rack up a 1st, 2nd and many top 10 and 20 finishes, some in $200+ buy in tournaments. I am still refining my skill, however.

Generally, especially in $50+ buy in tournaments and ones with long rounds, I get by via stealing once an hour or so has passed. I am pretty observant and capitalize well on weak players. However, I run into the same situation very frequently. Allow me to set the background.

I have gotten a decent "rush" of cards. By "rush" i mean a decent amount of favourable situations where I have stolen the blinds+limpers chips preflop or bought the pot on the flop. Generally my cards have been bad to marginal (57s to perhaps KJ) and I have had no showdowns. I know my opponents, although weak, are somewhat observant. This means that I plan on backing off from the stealing for a round or two so that marginal hands wont call me or play back. But then somthing like the following occurs:

I get KQo in the Cut-Off. It is folded to me. I have an above avg or avg stack and the blinds have similar stack size. They are both decent players, not terribly aggressive, not terribly tight. I'm not intimidated. I know they have been watching me raise a lot the past few hands, but I have KQo, and it has been folded to me. So I, of course, raise it up. It is folded to the BB who then pushes all in.

Now here is a true problem. I would never have tried to steal unless I had a decent hand because I am pretty sure the blinds are getting suspicious of the quality of my hands. If I was dealt, say, 8Ts i would have folded quickly because I would have thought the liklihood of a resteal to be very large. In fact, when I raised with KQo I thought he might resteal.

The way I see it there are 4 responses to this problem (substitute any marginal hand, such has 55, A3s, for the KQo). I can just fold preflop. I can move all-in and save myself the all-in call decision. I can make a normal raise then fold to the BB's all in, or I can make a normal raise and then call-in.

I do not particularly like any of these options. In any other situation similar to this one I would have a much better idea of the correct play. If the player is not obervant I would fold. If the player is extremely tight I would fold. If the player is extremely aggressive and loose I would heavily consider calling all in. If I was short stacked I would call all-in, etc.

Hopefully you see my dilemma. Perhaps you have experienced it too. What do those experienced MTTers with similar style do here?

[zaxx19]

Im not a huge MTT player or anything.....

But I do know how these guys think.

What they are gonna say is widen your range a bit then calculate the odds and make a call if its EV+.

They may make it sound more or even less complex than this but this is what theyll be saying.

Basically you need to widen your range for the villain based on their perceptions of you.

That being said I think KQo gets insta mucked. Too easily dominated and is behind even a dry ace. In fact it doesnt even play that well against a SC..

but hey thats my 2cents////

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
What they are gonna say is widen your range a bit then calculate the odds and make a call if its EV+.

They may make it sound more or even less complex than this but this is what theyll be saying.

Basically you need to widen your range for the villain based on their perceptions of you.

That being said I think KQo gets insta mucked. Too easily dominated and is behind even a dry ace. In fact it doesnt even play that well against a SC..

but hey thats my 2cents////

[/ QUOTE ]

I am going to take zaxx's two cents and add one cent of my own, bringing the total to three cents.

One mistake I think a lot of people make is they come to believe that NL tournament poker is about simply making the right decision on a given hand, and nothing else. This is wrong, and dangerous.

Yes, you might make a great read and call him down and he's holding KJ. Great. Nice job, well done.

But this is the equivalent of always going for the behind the back pass. You just don't need to do it when you're standing all alone under the basket.

Regardless of the previous action, KQ for all of your chips when you are in good chip shape is just not a great idea.

So your decision cannot be based upon the facts that you gave. In a situation like the one you give, it's more of a common sense issue, I think.

Now, obviously, if this same situation were to occur twice at the same table, and then occur a third time, you'd have to strongly consider the fact that you're getting pushed around, etc.

But as you describe it, it looks like an easy fold.

[AbelM]

[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it there are 4 responses to this problem (substitute any marginal hand, such has 55, A3s, for the KQo). I can just fold preflop. I can move all-in and save myself the all-in call decision. I can make a normal raise then fold to the BB's all in, or I can make a normal raise and then call-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot magic option nr. 5: limp

[Chuckster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it there are 4 responses to this problem (substitute any marginal hand, such has 55, A3s, for the KQo). I can just fold preflop. I can move all-in and save myself the all-in call decision. I can make a normal raise then fold to the BB's all in, or I can make a normal raise and then call-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot magic option nr. 5: limp

[/ QUOTE ]


Great point. This has been discussed many times.

You need to mix it up with your steals. You don't have to always do it by raising. You can simply limp from late position, and take the pot when checked to you. Obviously this is more dangerous and you can be trapped, but atleast it helps you vary your game and will make it tougher for players to read you.

[Stipe_fan]

I concur with the chuckster. You definitely need to vary your play on the CO or button. I like to limp and then check the flop. They will almost always make a 1/3 to 1/2 size bet on the turn and then you can raise them. This shows great strenght but you also could be trapped.

The original question is an easy fold. Your at best against a weak ace. What you assume your opponent thinks about your image is key. If they think your a thief, then you need to start showing strong hands. I wouldn't consider KQ strong enough to call an all-in with.

Stipe

[Sam T.]

HOH has a good section on being aware of your table image, and it sounds like you are. If you've been stealing enough that the opp. starts playing back at you, you are probably doing something right. Now you need to sit back for a couple of orbits and let them forget about you. Che often points out the necessity of changing gears during a tournament: Steal twice or three times in an orbit, then hang back for a while and let the cards come to you.

It's not bad to have the villains pissed at you from time to time. Suppose instead of KQ, you'd had KK? Merry Christmas! (But since you have KQ, fold.)

Sam

[slickpoppa]

Others have said this before, but I'll say it again: You cannot just play the cards you are dealt. If you have stolen 3 times in a row, you should be careful with KQ because there is a good chance that your raise won't be respected and you do not have the cards to face a reraise. Limping is a very good option. I find that many times my steal bets on the flop get MORE respect when I have limped.

[MrMoo]

I'm going to go against the grain here. I'm also probably one of the least experienced to respond to this thread. But, I'd like to throw out my opinion and see what others think.

Obviously there are a lot of circumstances that aren't covered. But, I'd tend to lean towards calling rather than lean towards folding. If I thought the BB was getting sick of my steals or if he didn't have a lot of chips and couldn't do a lot of damage, I'd most likely call.

If you fold here then to observant players, you just confirmed that you've been stealing a lot. You've likely also killed your opportunities for stealing in the near future. If you call, you give the impression that you're raising with decent hands and not stealing. You also show that you're willing to gamble and people should respect your raises. If you win, it's open season on stealing more.

Like I said before, this is a VERY debateable call. But I'd definitely be looking for a reason to call rather than a reason to fold.

[SharkBait]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to go against the grain here. I'm also probably one of the least experienced to respond to this thread. But, I'd like to throw out my opinion and see what others think.

Obviously there are a lot of circumstances that aren't covered. But, I'd tend to lean towards calling rather than lean towards folding. If I thought the BB was getting sick of my steals or if he didn't have a lot of chips and couldn't do a lot of damage, I'd most likely call.

If you fold here then to observant players, you just confirmed that you've been stealing a lot. You've likely also killed your opportunities for stealing in the near future. If you call, you give the impression that you're raising with decent hands and not stealing. You also show that you're willing to gamble and people should respect your raises. If you win, it's open season on stealing more.

Like I said before, this is a VERY debateable call. But I'd definitely be looking for a reason to call rather than a reason to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is still an easy fold. Unless the BB is a short stack that may be "giving up" and won't cripple you I hate the call. As others have pointed out you need to adjust your play based on current image and you can fold this hand and wait for the time that the BB (or others) play back at you with a strong hand. IF the table is observant and you think they won't respect your raises after 1 fold to an allin reraise (doubtful IMO) then you need to tighten up for awhile and maybe showdown a legitimate hand or two.