Turn Poker Tracker Off.

[Sarge85]

I put this in another post - but wanted to get a over all feel of the board.

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I know how to analyze my hands with the poker tracker and how to turn it on over a game but exactly what and how do I take advantage of this program specifically?


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*Warning* - Anti Poker Tracker Post.

Here’s what I would do. -- Forget about Poker Tracker.

Why?

1) If you just got it – you simply don’t have enough hands to tell you if you are playing “correctly” or not. You need tens of thousands of hands before you can make adjustments.

2) As far as when you are playing online - I think you are better having it “off” as well. You are not going to have any significant amount of hands on any one player early on.

I also believe as a whole, the forum puts way to much emphasis on these stats in the first place. When I see posts that start off with: Player is 35% V$IP/15% PFR – LAG over 50ish hands - followed by a hand that HERO overplayed (or maybe not overplayed, but was shown a “legit” hand, I’m not that surprised.

It is sort of ironic. We’ll get players that post their Poker Tracker stats over 50K hands, looking for feedback only to receive a chorus of “Sample Size To Small” from the fourm.

However we’ll get those players that scream sample size error, posting hands where they are making a “read” on a villain based on a uber small sample size.

Try making hand written notes in the Notes Box on Party Poker. Your own observations are exponentially more valuable. Seeing a player call down with Ace high, or second pair, or raising as a pure bluff – and then noting it is vastly superior to what PT will give you: 35%/15%/ AF 2.3 - 75 hands. Those 75 hands could mean anything – seeing a player call you down with bottom pair once or twice is HUGE.

I’ve been playing at TruePoker – (non PT supported, but has a notes feature) – Here are some of my notes off the top of my head:

Loose/Fishy
Will call down to river with sh*t
Will make “moves” on pot with scare cards
Tight
Could be 2+2er

Don’t get me wrong. PT does have value. When you have 15-20 instances of how you play 88 or certain suited connectors, then you can draw some conclusions. When/if you datamine and have several hundred hands on players (and visual hand histories) then you can more accurately determine LAG, Maniac, TAG, etc.

Ultimately my suggestion is this:

1. Leave Pokertracker off for a month. Simply import hands – don’t look at numbers, and don’t use GameTime/Player View. Use your own notes and solid poker skills.
2. If you are truly new to the game – read Winning Low Limit Hold’em by Lee Jones. If you have some back ground, and reasonably solid PF skills – skip WLLH and read Small Stakes Hold’em by Ed Miller.
3. Respond to hands – don’t be afraid to be wrong.
4. Post your own hands – with out results and only up to the point where you have a question on action

Good Luck

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[ClaytonN]

Good post, but how is your suggestion better than, say, using written reads AND incoroprating PT numbers?

I'll be honest, PT reads are only solid after a few hundred hands, at least. And they only show overall aggression factor and looseness/tightness.

Most importantly, PT doesn't give you the player's postflop tendencies on position in relation to the coordination of the flop (ie high suited, ragged, broadway, one paint, two paint, etc).

I understand what you're saying though, ie too much dependancy on PT as a whole.

[Sarge85]

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Good post, but how is your suggestion better than, say, using written reads AND incoroprating PT numbers?


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That's probably the best - but I rarely see that.

On a side note, does anyone know if manual notes are overwritten, after you export notes to Party?

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[aK13]

At party, I always use PT, but I've been playing at other sites occasionally, such as stars, that support it, but I don't use it (I load up hand histories to review later, though). I think it's good to really improve your game, rather than just trying to crank out $$ per hour, and focus on read based plays like "calls with any ace-rag, even for 3 bets preflop" or "bluffs busted flush/straight draws", that you'd be hard-pressed to catch using only PT.

[Jakesta]

I have been playing for a few months without PT and seem to be doing fine. I am sure that it will be great when I get it, but I really think that it is possible to play well online without it.

I think that it has actually helped me not having it, because I take notes on every player I come across, so when I get to a table on Stars, I have notes on maybe half the table.

Having a note that says "Non-bluffing Fish who will coldcall without thinking" helps a lot more than seeing "67/3/0.9" does. But having both can't hurt. I'm just saying not to let PT stop you from taking lots of notes on your opponents as well.

[shadow29]

Dude I respect you and your posts. Please don't take this personally or offensively, because I am honestly not trying to criticize you or the way you play (we'll save that for me bitching about how much of a luckbox you are HU).

But this is just dumb for anyone that is not a beginner.

People railling against PT either don't know how to use it properly or are tired of technology taking over the games. PT is a tool. Yes, it has faults, but I'll take the following notes export:

{{VP 69 - PFR 3 AF 1.4 - CCPF 3 - TH 1170 WF-R 11 - CR 0.0 - WSD 41 AF-F 1.1 - AF-T 1.3 - AF-R 3.0 FSB 0 - FBB 17 - FBB-HU 0 RAISE WITH AKs(1) LAST SEEN 3/5/05}}

over "Loose/Fishy" any day. As long as you know how to use PT and know what the stats mean and what you can extrapolate from the aforementioned stats, you are much better off.

Of course, for beginners PT might be best used for keeping track of their own play until they reach the point at which they know what the stats mean and what they should do based on those stats. But for an experienced player? Bah.

[sin808]

I've never understood why it always has to be one or the other RE: PT vs notes. Is it that hard to use both? I use PT/PV regularly while playing at party/skins, but still take detailed notes on players. I don't use PT at Stars or Paradise, but still take detailed notes. Real notes are far superior to just using stats, but having real notes+stats is even better imo. Stats alone are better than nothing, and can be helpful if you understand their limitations and deficiencies. Maybe the problem is merely in overvaluing stats?

Regarding your first point, from a stat perspective I agree. From a replay standpoint, I disagree.

[Frank A. Adrian]

I always have PT running.

That being said, I do it to make sure that the auto-requester and importer are running. I almost never check the stats once I'm playing.

Why? I multi-table and trying to keep PT in sync with all of the stuff I'm doing just takes up too much of my attention whenever I've tried it.

Although I do not look at PT in real time, I *do* almost always check my results post game, and see what some of the more egregious players are rated as (I can usually remember the regulars). And for this purpose, it has helped considerably.

Sometimes people use the statistics as if they're handed down from God (and often get punished in Biblical proportion). There are some things I love about PT (knowing how much money I've made or lost, my hand results, the ability to replay hands, etc.) and some things I think that blow (the autorate function is too generic - i.e., it doesn't take hand quality into account, the inability to purge certain items, etc.). In any case, like most flexible tools there are many ways it can be used and the issue is to find what works best for you.

[Sarge85]

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Dude I respect you and your posts. Please don't take this personally or offensively, because I am honestly not trying to criticize you or the way you play (we'll save that for me bitching about how much of a luckbox you are HU).

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Please don’t worry about me being offended. It’s the only way I learn.

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But this is just dumb for anyone that is not a beginner.

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Perhaps this post out of context won’t work.

Initially it was directed at a poster who is realitvely new to Hold’em. Slapped his $50 (or whatever) for Poker Tracker – but can’t figure out why he isn’t winning over the last 6 months.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&fpart=1

He’ll need a ton of hands before any of the numbers mean anything. His own and opponents.

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{{VP 69 - PFR 3 AF 1.4 - CCPF 3 – TH 1170 WF-R 11 - CR 0.0 - WSD 41 AF-F 1.1 - AF-T 1.3 - AF-R 3.0 FSB 0 - FBB 17 - FBB-HU 0 RAISE WITH AKs(1) LAST SEEN 3/5/05}}.

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This means something. --- The gist of my rant wasn’t to derail PT and it’s benefits – but when I see people trying to draw the same conclusion you can draw against an opponent over 1170 hands, it’s no wonder some flounder a bit. – I’m sure you and I have both seen posts where people are wanting to make the same assumptions when their opponents have say - less that 100 hands and the numbers aren’t as pronounced –say low 30’s VP or 15% PFR. – you just can’t draw much conclusion there.

I think it would benefit players more taking notes at showdown—

Called me down with bottom pair.
Doesn’t raise AK – folds to much
Ok to value bet against – calls with Ace high.
Bets scare cards on turn. – tricky, will make moves on pots
Cold Called QJ, but played fine on the flop.

I would say that these notes have more value, - let’s say immediate value, over making any sort of read on a player that you have a small sample size of hands on.

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As long as you know how to use PT and know what the stats mean and what you can extrapolate from the aforementioned stats, you are much better off.

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Couldn’t agree more.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[bighomage]

I agree with part of what you're saying. I think it's easy to become overdependent on PT stats. However, the more information you have in poker, the better. So I say leave PT on as long as you're letting your poker fundamentals dictate your play rather than your reads. I'm pretty sure this is what you were getting at, but maybe a little overstated. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]