PLO8 General Thought

[Wolffink]

I play Holdem but in that game, maniacs can be a real problem. You always see articles "How to Play When a Maniac is in the Game" for Holdem.

It's even worse if it's a player switching gears. If you get raised on the turn, how many winning hands have you folded to someone who might be in a "5 minute maniac mode"?

I was playing Razz last night and with a board of (2-3)-8-7-T-5 faced something like a: 5-8-T-T. I bet, he raises. Since the best he has is a T-low, I raise. He re-raises all-in. He doesn't draw out. The raise by him was a stupid play because I had a board lock. Even if he draws out to his eight, I still might win.

Razz, even more so than PL08 in some situations, punishes people who play too aggressively, who bully, who bluff too much, and who call too much. Bad play is obvious in Razz. It's not obvious in Holdem because you can't see their hole cards. They could *always* have trips even if the board is totally rainbow and innocent-looking. A pair isn't easy to make and when I do make Top-pair, it's also easily beaten. There's a NL quandry that you may bet your top pair, top kicker, but on the river, if you're re-raised all-in by a semi-maniac---it's still a tough call to make.

Phil Helmuth tells a story of playing Holdem, low limits for him, I think it was like $10/$20 and raising every hand, every card and betting , that at some point in the night he'd be up $1000. He was. If someone tried that in PL08, I'm hoping I can get a hand before someone else does and take his stack away from him.

The Steve Badger site has the well-known quote that PL08 between good players is incredibly boring. The Ray Zee book says that in PL08, bad players get cut up much too quick. In 7 stud, bad players can chase. In Holdem, they can play crazy and still have good nights. In fact, crazy-aggressive is a pain in Holdem to play against since you're rarely holding the nuts to confidently take them down.

[kurto]

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The Ray Zee book says that in PL08, bad players get cut up much too quick. In 7 stud, bad players can chase. In Holdem, they can play crazy and still have good nights. In fact, crazy-aggressive is a pain in Holdem to play against since you're rarely holding the nuts to confidently take them down.

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I believe bad players do alright at the PL08 tables because of the schooling effect. Also, because the starting hands are much closer together then in Holdem, players who have absolute junk preflop hit enough to reward their bad play.

I see bad players making very aggressive bets with very poor hands who win huge pots because their opponents are also equally bad. I'm talking about people calling huge bets with midpair and no redraws with 2 people betting in front of them calling down... and winning.

What I think happens, though, is with the schooling effect, a good player at a table of fishy calling stations is going to lose a lot of pots because the opponents have every out covered.

That is... If you're at a table where 5 people call you down, each player might have only 5 or 6 outs as opposed to Hero's 14 outs.... but if they all call, Hero is a favorite over any individual but will still lose the majority of the times he plays. Obviously in the long run, the Hero should be ahead. But in the short run... the hero can get killed.

Point being... in the above scenario, the bad players will win (and see each other take down pots) enough times to not feel they're getting 'cut up too quickly.'

Sorry if this is somewhat rambly. I'm writing on a deadline.

[willmay3]

Kurto,

I don't disagree that there is some schooling effect going on.

But, I'm almost willing to claim (though not entirely so) that playing against the brain-damaged competition that you play at definitely the $200 and lower, but maybe the $400 and lower buy-ins, that you could wait until you have lock low AND counterfeit protection AND a draw to or the current nut high - put in a pot sized bet on the flop, turn, and river and get 2-4 callers at every stage at least 3 times a night playing 6 hours.

You only have to then scoop 1 pot, split 2 or 3/4 it, and you have won two buy in's per night with absolutely NO risk to your bankroll.

[Ironman]

I agree completely.

I'm willing to lay down very big drawing hands when I have very little money in the pot because I know there will be situations during my session where I am way ahead.

Dave

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I agree completely.

I'm willing to lay down very big drawing hands when I have very little money in the pot because I know there will be situations during my session where I am way ahead.

Dave

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You're essentially accepting a reduced win rate for the benefit of reduced variance. If that's the approach you're going to take, you should be playing at higher levels compared to your BR than are usually advertised, since the BR requirements are less stringent with a lower-variance approach. Otherwise, you're $ earn will be less.

[Ironman]

Good point of course.

So far I have not been disappointed though laying down a nut low draw with a king high flush draw to turn action.

This is something I had trouble doing awhile ago...and basically why I spent the last 6 months playing limit.

A couple small adjustments in my game and now I feel very comfortable at the PLO8 tables.

My VPIP is 28% which I think is ok...but I am staying out of trouble when things look bad.

Dave