kk vs maniac, dangerous monotone flop - Page 2

xorbie · #11 11-03-2005, 08:13 PM

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I disagree that this is a bad flop. The chance of hero being behind is very small, given the range of hands villain will play. It's probably better than 4 to 1 that hero is ahead. If an Ace had flopped, that would be a bad flop, but this is a good flop.

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Ok, enough of this bullshit. Please give me a hand range for villain, then a hand range for villain calling a bet, then run it through pokerstove. Try 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 first.

flawless_victory · #12 11-03-2005, 08:14 PM

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I disagree that this is a bad flop. The chance of hero being behind is very small, given the range of hands villain will play. It's probably better than 4 to 1 that hero is ahead. If an Ace had flopped, that would be a bad flop, but this is a good flop. It's a flop where hero is likely to get action from a hand who he is favored against, as there are all sort of draws out there. Hero wants action, so he should bet. There's a good chance villian will go over the top with a draw, so give him the chance to do so.

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give me a break... this a good flop?
LLLLOOOOLLLL. you cannot be this stupid.

yo creed/ check it.

HoldEmKillah · #13 11-03-2005, 08:24 PM

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Any random [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] with any random pair is a favorite right now.

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I never even realized this. Man. I better go read some books or somethin'.

Fnord · #14 11-03-2005, 08:34 PM

This is out of my league, but as a small stakes NLHE and LHE player, must I point out the pot size relative to the money behind? Just about any bet ties us to the pot. Even if we're a 60/40ish dog it's not that big of a mistake. The variance sucks, but that's the price for playing against these ATM machines.

Checking behind sucks because he probably doesn't have a heart and one is slightly more likely to turn if he doesn't have it.

There is a lot of money out there, you probably have the best hand and he will often have no heart.

Push.

xorbie · #15 11-03-2005, 08:40 PM

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This is out of my league, but as a small stakes NLHE and LHE player, must I point out the pot size relative to the money behind? Just about any bet ties us to the pot. Even if we're a 60/40ish dog it's not that big of a mistake. The variance sucks, but that's the price for playing against these ATM machines.

Checking behind sucks because he probably doesn't have a heart and one is slightly more likely to turn if he doesn't have it.

Push.

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Push is terrible. I'd much rather check and let him bluff the turn if I want to get it all in here.

Fnord · #16 11-03-2005, 08:43 PM

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Push is terrible. I'd much rather check and let him bluff the turn if I want to get it all in here.

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Are we in a spot to call a bluff? There are a lot of non-heart hands he could have and improve with that he might fold to a push. If a heart hits would you consider calling?

When the pot is big I want to maximize my chances of winning it.

If he wants action, he's going to get unlimited action from my KK if over 18% of his stack goes in pre-flop.

flawless_victory · #17 11-03-2005, 08:45 PM

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Any random [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] with any random pair is a favorite right now.

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I never even realized this. Man. I better go read some books or somethin'.

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holyshit. glad you run good homie. wow.

Rococo · #18 11-03-2005, 09:07 PM

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Ok, enough of this bullshit. Please give me a hand range for villain, then a hand range for villain calling a bet, then run it through pokerstove. Try 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 first.

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You obviously are correct Xorbie, but I do have one quibble. Villain can't put Hero on a black overpair. Put another way, Villain doesn't know that Hero doesn't have a better heart. I wouldn't be anxious to get it all in here with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Would you?

fuego527 · #19 11-03-2005, 09:18 PM

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Ok, enough of this bullshit. Please give me a hand range for villain, then a hand range for villain calling a bet, then run it through pokerstove. Try 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 first.

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You obviously are correct Xorbie, but I do have one quibble. Villain can't put Hero on a black overpair. Put another way, Villain doesn't know that Hero doesn't have a better heart. I wouldn't be anxious to get it all in here with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Would you?

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To me, that's the point. Even a hand as bad as 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] has you. Are there a lot of these marginal hands that are slightly ahead that will fold to a push? Of course there are. But now imagine the hands that will call you, and how likely they are given a player who raises marginal holdings (many of which hit this flop hard, this player-type loves s00ted cards) and calls RRs with them.

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Are we in a spot to call a bluff? There are a lot of non-heart hands he could have and improve with that he might fold to a push. If a heart hits would you consider calling?

When the pot is big I want to maximize my chances of winning it.

If he wants action, he's going to get unlimited action from my KK if over 18% of his stack goes in pre-flop.

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This pot isn't that big, and thats just an awful theory anyways. And I believe the point of the check flop, call turn comment was just comparing that line to the flop push, not really suggesting it as optimal play.

xorbie · #20 11-03-2005, 09:18 PM

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Ok, enough of this bullshit. Please give me a hand range for villain, then a hand range for villain calling a bet, then run it through pokerstove. Try 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 first.

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You obviously are correct Xorbie, but I do have one quibble. Villain can't put Hero on a black overpair. Put another way, Villain doesn't know that Hero doesn't have a better heart. I wouldn't be anxious to get it all in here with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Would you?

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Obviously not, I was just making a point. If hero pushes, I think villain calls with a lot of pair + [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], a lot of 9 + pair, obviously all flushes, obviously all sets/two pair. So really the only thing we beat is if this guy calls with AJ no [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or something.