interesting turn/river decision

gomberg · #1 03-04-2005, 01:58 AM

This min-raising crap is sort of fun. I feel evil when I do it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] the fold equity you get from it though is pretty unreal against the right opponents. I've been doing it for the first half hour in late position - so they shouldn't really put me on much.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (8 handed) converter

UTG+1 ($1122.75)
MP1 ($3051.75)
MP2 ($2091)
CO ($978.25)
Hero ($1031)
SB ($1294)
BB ($1574.25)
UTG ($1022.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $5.
4 folds, Hero raises to $20, SB (poster) calls $15, BB calls $10.

Flop: ($60) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $45, SB folds, BB calls $45.

Turn: ($150) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $80, BB raises to $225, Hero calls $145.

River: ($600) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets $300...

comments? I'm wondering about my turn call specifically. Does anyone fold this river bet w/out a read?

limitlee · #2 03-04-2005, 05:39 PM

interesting post. you're right, the major decision had to be made on the turn, not the river. after your preflop raise, BB is going to figure you for overcards. he cold-calls you on the flop then raises you when the Q hits on the turn... this should indicate that he's trapping you with a better 6, if not a boat. the river bet seems almost like a value bet to me...

again... this would be my take without any previous history of how he plays. you also mentioned that your opponents figure you're min-raising with crap by now, so anyone in the hand should be wary when 6 6 7 flops... he who's willing to raise you on the TURN and value bet the river... i'd probably fold and pick a better spot.

YoungPoker2 · #3 03-04-2005, 06:05 PM

sounds like the standard call the flop, check-raise the best hand on the turn play...2 to 1 on your money to call the river bet, right? A6 in the BB would be my guess, so folding on the river (or better yet, the turn) would be the best play imo if you're able to lay down the trips.

radioheadfan · #4 03-04-2005, 06:12 PM

Opponent could easily have something like AQ or KQ and think he has your random hand smoked. Unlikely he has the case 6 but possible. I'm calling the turn for sure. Calling the river seems reasonable as well. Expect to lose about 50% of the time here though.

He might have also simply tried to take the pot from you on the turn with something like 88, but once you called he's committed to blocking-bet that river.

Call both streets.

nokona13 · #5 03-04-2005, 08:02 PM

I'd say KQ or AQ from a tight player is definitely a possibility. If you've been min-raising alot, I assume the other players figure you to be fairly weak, and he could easily think you're betting 99, or even 55, or maybe a 7. Getting 3:1 on the call on the river, though, I'd say you have to call and not be suprised if you get shown QdXd or A6...

But then again, I'm a calling station [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Jason Strasser · #6 03-04-2005, 08:43 PM

Oh.

I think I know who you are, but I can't put a name to it. PM me if your identity is public.

Anyway, to the hand. This would be a very marginal call. I find myself struggling to fold this hand too often, so I'm prolly the worst person to ask.

That river bet looks kinda scary. There's nothing really I can say about calling or not, except that it obviously depends on your opponents. For some, this fold is obvious, for others this is an insta-call. A good range of your opponents hands involves either a split pot or him bluffing. The problem is that another big range of his possible holdings involves better trips or maybe a flush (very weird line).

This is a spot where if I don't know what to do I call, but I'm not sure if that's great advice.

-Jason

NiceCatch · #7 03-04-2005, 08:49 PM

If Hero has been minraising in position, why wouln't he have the 6? And why bet the river that hard, especially considering Hero called the turn? If the Hero didn't have a 6, and has a reasonably solid image, how would the Villain justify the Hero's turn call?

I'm thinking the Hero is beaten by a boat or a better 6.

gomberg · #8 03-06-2005, 02:22 PM

Thanks for replies. I just got back from out of town.

In the hand, I sruggled, finally couldn't figure out what he wanted me to do, and defaulted to calling. I had been pounding on this guy a little, so maybe he was trying to push back at me in a pot. He flipped 44 and MHIG.

b0000000000m · #9 03-06-2005, 03:18 PM

I feel out of the loop. You reference min-raising as if it's the "in" thing to do. Last I heard people didn't like it.

Can someone please either link me to a thread, or explain to me the rationale for min-raising in this position? (Rather than, say, 3.5x BB).

gomberg · #10 03-06-2005, 03:29 PM

Matt Flynn had a post about it a while back if you want to search. As for doing it, I rarely do it and was just experimenting. It seems that sometimes min-raising allows you to generate good folding equity (and sometimes stealing) with less money than a 3.5x BB bet. Sometimes it "freezes" aggro blinds / buttons into NOT raising random hands - so if you want to see a cheap flop, you can min-raise instead of limping then calling when raised. I'm sure I'm missing some other benefits as well. If the blinds start getting annoyed at your constant min-raising, you may want to do it w/ a premium hand so you hope they play back at you at the wrong time. It just adds another pyschological dimension to preflop play if you want to try it. In general, I don't use min-raising much.