atheistic morality

[siegfriedandroy]

I am a Christian theist, and have been engaging in an ongoing discussion with an atheist of friend of mine regarding the concept of morality within an atheistic world view. Perhaps there already some good threads in this forum on the issue...

My initial argument was that there can be no such thing as an absolute, ultimate and objective standard of morality (such as the one the Christian religion proclaims) within an atheistic philosophy. My belief is that atheistic morality is instead entirely subjective and (ultimately) w/o any true meaning apart from that placed upon it by each individual in his lifetime. In reality, the 'wicked' deeds of Hitler, Stalin, Mau, Bush (???), etc., are not evil in any meaningful or absolute sense. Expressions of hatred, distaste, and enmity towards any of these people are in truth (whatever that means) any more valid or legitimate than would expressions of praise and approval for their heinous (in my view they are truly and absolutely evil, as they are in direct opposition to the law of God) actions.

Anyway, my atheist friend could not seem to agree with my above characterization of his worldview's thoughts about morality. Instead, he made what I see as a foolish argument about how 'evil' deeds are somehow truly evil b/c they cause pain to others. He goes on to argue that b/c he knows how pain feels, that somehow he knows it is wrong to instill pain on others. I see this as crazy and directly opposed to the clear implications of atheistic philosophy. Of course, he is free to believe this (or absolutely anything else, for that matter). But in my view, these beliefs are in no way binding or meaningful in any way. To his credit (I guess), he ultimately admitted that his views are of no true and real value or validity beyond whatever pointless purpose they serve here on earth, during this infinitesimally brief flicker and flash of time we experience.

I was, and still am, of the opinion, that most atheistic thinkers would agree that there can be no such thing as an objective, absolute morality w/i an naturalistic view. From reading through some of the posts here, I can see that there are some atheists who seem to be well versed in philosoophy. I'd appreciate your input on this issue.

To be frank, I feel that many (or at least a significant #) of atheists seem incapable of comprehending these logical, moral implications of their philosophy. Rightly or wrongly, it upsets me when prominent atheistic thinkers (or even my good atheistic friend) pontificate endlessly about the pros and cons of each of the social/moral issues that predominate today in our world. It seems ridiculous to me to hear an atheist, one who admits that his views have no real substance, validity, import, etc., rant about how horrible the war is (or how noble it is), how we should believe (or not believe) this about the environment, etc. I understand this is a philosophically delicate topic, and I have not effectively articulated my thoughts to the degree I wish I could. But I do believe my basic ideas are correct, being (1) w/i atheism, there is no such thing as objective morality; (2) the most atrocious crimes committed in the history of the world are not really 'evil' in the sense that most people understand 'evil' to mean (poorly stated, but im tired and multitalbing, too!); (3) murder, rape, etc. is not really, objectively, and absolutely wrong and evil; (4) all arguments in such a world have absolutely zero moral truth inherent in them... i.e.- "we should not go to war b/c innocent iraqis are dying" is no more valid or true then "we should continue the war until we kill all innocent iraqis"- neither statement is really 'better' or worthy of more acceptance or following than the other- (this idea is difficult for me to articulate- basically i just think atheism reduces everything in the universe into utter chaos, confusion, meaninglessness, etc., making every single argument ever made w/o any true meaning); (5) cant think of a fifth- ill return later when i think of more!;

Anyways, just wanted to attempt to gather my thoughts a bit, and hopefully spark some dialogue over these issues regarding atheism.

peace