TPWK with a change of mind..

#1 11-17-2005, 07:49 AM

I'd been sucked out on a couple of times already at this table and was a bit tilty. I'd normally just fold this preflop, then I lost my confidence in the TPWK on the turn. Basically, I got lost...All comments and thoughts appreciated

Villain here was your average fish, busted out 2 hands later when he finished up capping the river with bottom pair, and UTG+1 was LAGgy and I didn't put him on much better than a raggy Ace

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (fishboy) calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, fishboy calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, fishboy raises, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds.

River: (12.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, fishboy bets, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

#2 11-17-2005, 07:54 AM

Tried to analyze your postflop play but then I found out where the problem was. Fold preflop.

#3 11-17-2005, 07:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

zPro · #4 11-17-2005, 08:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Villain here was your average fish, busted out 2 hands later when he finished up capping the river with bottom pair, and UTG+1 was LAGgy and I didn't put him on much better than a raggy Ace

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is large, you are getting 11 to 1, you have Top Pair.
You have this read, why aren't you using it?
I call down, based on the read.

What made you fold?

#5 11-17-2005, 08:34 AM

grunch

Preflop: As you noted, yes, you should have folded pre-flop

But, as played:

Flop: I would have checked expecting UTG+1 or someone in later position to bet and then probably folded. If checked through I would fold c/f the turn/river.

Turn fold is fine.

#6 11-17-2005, 09:03 AM

What made you fold?

I think it was because I knew I really shouldn't be playing this hand, and all of a sudden I lost confidence to bet at it. But you hit part of my thinking on the head as well. My pot odds are good, I have TP, this guy could have anything. Hell, maybe he just paired his 82o.... I don't know, I think there's two things to think about for me here. If I'm not confident to bet/raise with it, maybe I shouldn't call, and maybe I should trust my reads more too. But then he probably had pocket rockets, isn't this the way that they get played these days: limp in, call the flop then start rasing the turn or is it just me that's seen that a lot lately

matt hooley · #7 11-17-2005, 10:08 AM

ignoring preflop, I think you must call the turn for several reasons
1) there is a remote chance you have the best hand. you describe "fishboy" as aggressive. he might be raising with a newly aquired flush draw or something like AQ, sometimes bad players get aggressive for no reason.
2) you're getting about 13.25-1. it's true that you're 3 outs are a 14.3-1 dog but you may be able to checkraise the river when you hit, plus the small chance that you have the best hand at the moment.
3) when it's otherwhise close, you should avoid betting and folding to a raise on the same street.

I call the turn raise and check-fold the river UI if someone calls in front of me, but if everyone else folds I call the river, you're getting great odds.

Shargaas · #8 11-17-2005, 12:30 PM

Folding pre-flop would have prevented the dilemma presented to you on the turn.

Once you've seen the flop, one line to consider is to check and see what the action is behind you. Let's say UTG+1 bets and someone else raises back to you. This is an easy fold. It's a bit tougher if UTG+1 bets and there are only calls behind but if everyone calls, I would again consider folding. If UTG+1 bet and no one called back to you, then a raise may be in order (given you think he has a crummy A).

Aaron W. · #9 11-17-2005, 12:59 PM

More betting into the PFR! I have yet to see any good general ideas on when it's a smart play. In general, doing this is bad.

milesdyson · #10 11-17-2005, 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
More betting into the PFR! I have yet to see any good general ideas on when it's a smart play. In general, doing this is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
i agree, although i haven't contributed anything to that thread. i just go around here telling people to check the flop. it's really the first thing i look for when i see someone enter the pot and being raised (or reraised).

i think of it as "giving up our position," since the preflop raiser will autobet so many hands on flops. we really act last, but by betting, we tell the preflop raiser what we are doing before he has to act (i said this in a 2+2 hand post yesterday i believe).