General question on information raises

[Chazbot2000]

Been playing $2/4 for about 6 months now and read a couple basic books on poker.

There's a lot of talk about information raises once the flop comes out. As I understand it, this means raising someone once the flop comes out to see how strong he is (while bets are still cheap).

This makes sense to me except for the simple fact that information raises are a very well known tactic (I know it and I've only been playing for 6 months). Given that is the case, can you really expect to get any reliable information out of them? If I have a marginal hand but want to appear strong and someone raises my bet on the flop, I know he's probably using his raise to determine my strength. Of course I'd reraise to represent a strong hand. Doesn't this indicate the information raise on the flop loses its value?

Thanks in advance for the help.

[Styles]

Hey Chazbot,

Welcome to the forum. I played at a table early Saturday night with you.

All IMHO, but, if you do a search on "raising for information" this comes up quite a bit and is probably the least contentious thing I've read on the forums (almost everyone agrees).

S&M have a "5 reasons for raising" essay in HEFAP pgs. 97-100 "raising for information" (RFI) is fifth and the list does seem sorted by most important to last. The main points are to RFI only heads-up against an opponent you have an excellent read on.

"Even in the most favorable spots, this raise may not be worth it, as you usually have to "pay" too much for the information."

Later saying, "You want to raise [for information] someone who will only reraise if your hand is no good. However, if you fold when reraised you have to be correct virtually everytime."

Without having a really predictable player that you know very well, you can't get reliable information from this raise and will end up folding some really big pots heads-up which is almost always incorrect to do and over the long run will far outweigh any big bets that you save by raising for information you're really paying twice as much for a turn card as you should in this spot.

Mason in Poker Esssays 1, 2, and 3 has lists and essays on things like essential skills and ranks them (hand reading, hand selection, check-raising, etc) RFI is not really mentioned as a necessary tool to winning play.

Even when you do, these fancy plays don't account for much of the win-rate. Per HEFAP and TOP, you make money on your opponents mistakes not your fancy plays. When you make this play you make the pot bigger (usually with a somewhat vulnerable hand or a marginal hand) and make your opponent play correctly by calling you down. If he does have the nuts he'll also wait and reraise you on a later street costing you even more after you have tied yourself to that big pot.


Welcome, and Good Luck. The best way to learn around here is to post some hands, if you have some where you RFI you will get good feedback. You sometimes raise for a combination of reasons like RFI and raising to protect your hand, but, only RFI is probably best saved for another place/time. IMHO.

Styles

[Alobar]

Raising for information has its advantages, but only against certain opponents. You have to know the information you're getting is correct. If you raise and know he would 3 bet with alot of things, you just paid 2 bets to find out nothing. And did he only call because he is weak, or he is holding the nuts and is just going to pop you later? I only usually like to do it when it serves another purpose AND gives me info. Like if I'm holding Axs on an A flop with 2 of my suit. Now if I pop the pre flop raiser, I'm gunna get a little info on weather or not my A may good, and I'm building the pot if my flush hits.