JJ with Q on the flop vs TAG villain

#1 12-13-2005, 09:00 PM

Was folding the turn the right thing to do, or should I have just called down to the river?

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 4 folds, Button raises, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.00 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG folds, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.00 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.00 BB.

McGahee · #2 12-13-2005, 09:23 PM

I normally hate PF discussion, but this is a MUST 3-bet. You do realize that a TAG is trying to isolate UTG OTB with a wide range of hands and your JJ is likely to pwn, right?

madscratch · #3 12-13-2005, 09:29 PM

McGahee speaks the truth.

#4 12-13-2005, 09:57 PM

I would also 3-bet preflop so you could hopefully go heads up.

#5 12-13-2005, 10:31 PM

::grunch::

Between the pre-flop raise, the flop bet and 3-bet, and the Queen hitting the flop, I think it's a safe bet that your jacks are no good. I can't remember a time I've ever seen someone 3-bet a flop with nothing more than AK (AK of hearts might be an outside possibility here), which is the most likely hand I see you beating here.

EDIT: I just noticed that you C/R'd the flop. I'm not sure I like that too much with an overcard hitting. I'd rather just lead out the flop and see if you're raised or not.

@bsolute_luck · #6 12-13-2005, 11:10 PM

okay let's do 2 things with this hand:

Line 1: Hero plays preflop is shown:
what does the TAG think you have by check/raising and what do you do? comon, you guys are trying to get off easy by throwing out blanket preflop suggestions. THINK.
POSTFLOP: do you play as hero did? do you cap the flop? donk the turn?

Line 2: Hero 3-bets preflop and Villain does NOT cap but raises the flop

Start thinking postflop and gaining confidence. you'll spend/save more money than by simply blurting out preflop and that's it.

TO OP: learn to post reads both preflop and postflop. does button isolate? how aggressive is he postflop?

preflop is a 3-bet for value, but my view on postflop: donk/fold the turn. he could very well be doing this with TT or A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

i think you need to establish (since you didn't preflop) that you have a hand and aren't bluffing/semi-bluffing a drawing hand or lower pair. i don't like capping the flop simply because he's made it somewhat clear he has a hand, so you don't want to spend extra BBs by capping the flop and leading the turn, only to have to fold to a raise unless your BDFD or goofy straight draw improve.

so i call the 3-bet and donk the turn to establish my hand is not full of #&$^, but if my read is he's only raising with hands that beat me (paired Q or higher), then easy fold UI.

i would play the same if i improve as well, but have to have in the back of my head whether i'm calling/folding if he bets the river and i again don't improve.

McGahee · #7 12-13-2005, 11:32 PM

Well, PF isn't really a 'blanket statement' because this isn't AJo or KQo UTG - there's a right and a wrong.

Yeah - postflop we're in a lousy spot. I'd probably favor a check/call over a bet/fold on the turn for two reasons. One, a player aggressive enough to 3-bet with a draw probably isn't taking a free card when it gets to HU. Two, he might see a turn donk on a paired board as a sign of weakness and raise for a free showdown with a lower PP. Hero's protection C/R on the flop also shows a bit of weakness, so he could be getting frisky with quite a few hands depending on his AF.

@bsolute_luck · #8 12-14-2005, 09:02 AM

i termed it "blanket statement" simply because 3-betting JJ in this situation isn't even a question, but postflop really is.

that's why i proposed the 2 lines because the way it was played, i think you're right: hero didn't establish he has a premium holding preflop and his c/r could be weakness such as a 9 or other PP.

i don't know if i would see a donkbet as weakness, but i would say if you plan on seeing a showdown and you think villain would play this aggressively with say A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or some weaker hand and wouldn't trust if he raised your turn donkbet, then check/call down.

so there are a number of difficulties in this hand and really if we're unsure of our read and how villain plays postflop, i typically see showdown HU.

Buckmulligan · #9 12-14-2005, 09:52 AM

Read dependant. I think donk/folding or check/folding the turn is fine.

#10 12-14-2005, 02:10 PM

Thanks for the input. I usually have trouble playing JJ PF not know when to just call or raise. The other problem I have is with the Villain, I have not seen him showdown any hands, and has been fairly tight with his preflop hands.

[ QUOTE ]
if we're unsure of our read and how villain plays postflop, i typically see showdown HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that you mention it, that probably would've been the best move, so I can see what he typically holds with this kind of play and use this information in future hands against him.