feeling lost with KQs

The Goober · #1 07-26-2005, 03:42 AM

Sorry if this is boring, but it left me confused. The only thing I felt confident about was the flop raise.

Live 4-8

UTG seemed tight and relatively passive, although I have seen her make an aggressive move on the flop before. BB is a good player, but slightly on the passive side. Everyone else is mostly unknown, but is definately too loose.

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, LP calls, SB folds, BB calls.

(LP was telegraphing his call, FWIW)

Flop: (12 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, LP folds, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

(BB called quickly both times, I felt pretty confident he had a T, maybe with a pair as well)

Turn: (11 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (14 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Petteri · #2 07-26-2005, 03:55 AM

I think you played well. Raising to protect hand is standard move. After UTG 3-bets flop you are probably behind but have outs.

When it comes to turn pot odds make easy call.

I do not see room for value raise at river.

The Goober · #3 07-26-2005, 01:03 PM

Yeah, I guess this is a pretty standard hand, it just felt weird to play so passively in a big pot. I also didn't really know what outs I had. I suppose the 3 remaining Ts are likely clean (b/c I don't think that UTG would check-3-bet with AK here), but it would be hard to know what to do if a Q or K came. When the river is checked to me, I'm starting to think that maybe I'm good, but the chance is just too great that UTG has an overpair and just lost her nerve (but will still call, of course).

What would you do if it went check-bet on the river? Make the crying call?

#4 07-26-2005, 01:22 PM

I don't think you have a valid call on the river here, unless a Q came down instead.

I hate your position here and it sounds like you do also, so you need to seriously evaluate your outs (b/c you are not ahead on the flop). I think your raise on the flop is fine to find out where you are at. Because the early tight/passive player is now check-3betting the flop after having raised preflop, I think we can put her on AA, KK, JJ, or maybe 99. The worst she can do this with is AQs. The BB has made it clear that she is either drawing or currently has the nuts.

I agree with you that the raiser doesn't have AK, but we can't discount the BB from holding this hand in an offsuit form. BB may also have such hands that include a K like KQ, KJ, KT, or the rare K9s. Any of these hands instantly kill your turn odds to draw to a T. You also put BB on a T, so this gives 3 outs, which is less than 13:1 on the turn. I'll give you one more out (vs. two) for the Q because it may hurt your hand instead of helping it. The K is not a clean enough out here.
So at best, you have 4 outs on the turn, which is 11:1, and you are getting 13:1. But if you hit a T and split the pot, this kills your odds. I think this will happen enough to turn your action into a fold on the turn.

callmedonnie · #5 07-26-2005, 01:29 PM

when a relatively passive and tight player raises UTG, I am folding KQsuited from any spot at the table.

MrStretchie · #6 07-26-2005, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
when a relatively passive and tight player raises UTG, I am folding KQsuited from any spot at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you expect 6-way action? Even for the multiway aspects this is a call preflop. Plus if it's a passive player and you make a pair, they'll let you know pretty quick if you're good.

#7 07-26-2005, 01:38 PM

No one's said this yet, so perhaps I'm just flagging myself as a newbie, but why can't he 3-bet KQs for value? He's already got a few callers. Raiser could have anything from AA-JJ + AK-AQs AK os; with so many people in the pot the threat of domination isn't that high, and his hand wins at least 20 % of the time. SSHE had a similar example in the hand quizzes with AJs, which plays about the same as KQs, right? Also, by 3-betting, hands like KK and AA will prolly stand out right away b/c raiser will cap it.

That being said, turn fold seems to be in order.

MrStretchie · #8 07-26-2005, 02:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No one's said this yet, so perhaps I'm just flagging myself as a newbie, but why can't he 3-bet KQs for value? He's already got a few callers. Raiser could have anything from AA-JJ + AK-AQs AK os; with so many people in the pot the threat of domination isn't that high, and his hand wins at least 20 % of the time. SSHE had a similar example in the hand quizzes with AJs, which plays about the same as KQs, right? Also, by 3-betting, hands like KK and AA will prolly stand out right away b/c raiser will cap it.

That being said, turn fold seems to be in order.

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem is, KQs loses a lot of its value against a PF raiser (especially from EP) who's likely to have AK/AQ/AA/KK/QQ. It still has multi-way value, but your 3-bet will likely knock out those behind you who might play for two (in this game). Your implied odds go way down as you have less players in postflop, and you're putting more money in preflop.

peterchi · #9 07-26-2005, 03:07 PM

i like it from start to finish.

clearly you're behind on the flop after UTG check-3bets and BB comes along, but i think the pot is big enough to warrant a turn call despite the danger of splitting if a 10 hits. UTG's probable holdings are AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AQ. BB has a wider range, but i don't think that many of them include a king (KQ or KJ would be the only ones i could think of, compared to the multitude of other hands he may have, like QT, JT, 9T, Tx, etc). So spiking a 10 is a clean out against a big percentage of these.

I like the river check too, don't feel bad about that [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

naphand · #10 07-26-2005, 03:50 PM

Why would 2-pair or a set check this River? The Turn or River cards cannot have hit anyone, except a very unlikely runner flush (which would have to be pretty much exactly Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

If you read BB for a pair plus draw (with a T) you are ahead of him on the River, UTG's check could be fear of the runner flush (you say she is passive) but equally could be a hand like ATs/KJs (7-handed this is a legitimate UTG raise). So a value bet should be considered, easy fold to a raise.

UTG could have an overpair, and may not bet it on the River fearing what? If anyone has 2-pair they would raise the Turn no? UTG's most likely hand IMO is KK for the overpair plus draw or AQ for TP plus draw. Checking is not a disaster but, given you almost certainly have SB beat, it is a question of how often you are ahead of UTG and how often SB calls with a worse hand that determines if this River is a value bet.

Tough spot, I am itching to bet this River when it gets checked to me, but given UTGs passivity I probably check behind as well and see their cards.