sanity check - live 8-16 hand

The Goober · #1 03-30-2005, 05:59 AM

Live 8-16 game. Table is playing kinda tight at the moment - people are still cold-calling too much pre-flop, but there is a fair amount of chopped blinds and not a whole lot of showdowns.

PF:
EP raises first in, 3 people cold-call, and I call with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] from the cutoff. The button calls and the blinds fold. The button seems reasonable, perhaps bordering on tight-passive.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players, 13.5 SB)
EP (pfr) looks a little resigned, but bets out anyways. Folded to me and I raise...

standard? stupid? If I haven't botched it yet, what's my line for the rest of the hand?

mantasm · #2 03-30-2005, 06:11 AM

Sure, if your read is accurate it's a good chance to steal a pretty big pot. You may even have the best hand if the guy has something like KQ. If the button calls or raises, check fold the turn. If you get it heads up, bet the turn and check behind on the river.

Chris Dow · #3 03-30-2005, 06:24 AM

This is wrong. I think you guys need to remember that if you actually had an ace here you might consider a trickier line of call the flop and raise the turn. I think that when you are going to try to push the EP raiser off of a big pair you have 0 value in this raise the flop bet the turn check behind? I think the whole check behind thing is much more valuable when *maybe* you have a chance to win. You won't in this situation. If you want to make a play call the flop, raise the turn.

The Dude · #4 03-30-2005, 06:31 AM

Standard thus far. Bet the turn, and if he calls you there, then he's decided to call you down, so you should check behind a non-8 river.

mantasm · #5 03-30-2005, 06:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is wrong. I think you guys need to remember that if you actually had an ace here you might consider a trickier line of call the flop and raise the turn. I think that when you are going to try to push the EP raiser off of a big pair you have 0 value in this raise the flop bet the turn check behind? I think the whole check behind thing is much more valuable when *maybe* you have a chance to win. You won't in this situation. If you want to make a play call the flop, raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the turn is more expensive and less likely to make him fold a better hand, if he has one.

Chris Dow · #6 03-30-2005, 06:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is wrong. I think you guys need to remember that if you actually had an ace here you might consider a trickier line of call the flop and raise the turn. I think that when you are going to try to push the EP raiser off of a big pair you have 0 value in this raise the flop bet the turn check behind? I think the whole check behind thing is much more valuable when *maybe* you have a chance to win. You won't in this situation. If you want to make a play call the flop, raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the turn is more expensive and less likely to make him fold a better hand, if he has one.

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If by less, you mean more. Than yes, otherwise I disagree.

The Goober · #7 03-30-2005, 02:40 PM

Thanks for the input everyone. I sorta like the idea of waiting for the turn to raise - its an expensive gamble, but I think it might pay off and probably has a somewhat greater chance of folding getting CO to fold something like JJ. I think the danger there is that EP or button has something like KQ and catches on the turn, then feels obligated to call down (whereas he would be more likely to dump that to a flop raise). In this particular case, I don't think it was the right thing to do - b/c I would probably have to fire again on the river if called, and I could easily end up spending 4.5BB just to be shown an A or something like QQ (both of these players called down a little bit too much).

I should have mentioned earlier that I had a pretty tight image, so neither player would believe that I have a 4.

As it happened, the button cold-called my raise with a demeanor that said to me "I've got a weak A and I'm not letting go of it in this big pot" (in the previous hand, he was berating a player for folding top pair in a big pot when there was lots of action). EP also called the raise with a determined look that said to me "this pocket pair looked so pretty pre-flop, I don't know how to fold it". I check-folded to button's bet on the turn.

meep_42 · #8 03-30-2005, 02:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is wrong. I think you guys need to remember that if you actually had an ace here you might consider a trickier line of call the flop and raise the turn. I think that when you are going to try to push the EP raiser off of a big pair you have 0 value in this raise the flop bet the turn check behind? I think the whole check behind thing is much more valuable when *maybe* you have a chance to win. You won't in this situation. If you want to make a play call the flop, raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

He may check-call down if you simply call the flop, though.

-d

mantasm · #9 03-30-2005, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Raising the turn is more expensive and less likely to make him fold a better hand, if he has one.

[/ QUOTE ]

If by less, you mean more. Than yes, otherwise I disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

By raising the flop, the final pot will be 12.75 BB. To call down, he needs to put in 2.5 BB. He is getting 4.1:1 to call down.

If you raise the turn, the final pot will be 13.75 BB. He will need to call 2 more BB to see a showdown. He is getting 5.875:1 to call down.

Also, please note that the Dude abides.