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#1
11-18-2005, 02:05 PM
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22 - QQ overpair wuss fold
No particular reads on the two opponents. Too weak or can I stand up and scream "Baby, this was the hand I was supposed to go broke on".
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter CO (t525) Hero (t760) SB (t755) BB (t800) UTG (t800) UTG+1 (t930) UTG+2 (t1045) MP1 (t750) MP2 (t1085) MP3 (t545) Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t70</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t55, MP3 calls t55. Flop: (t232.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> UTG+1 bet 125, MP3 raises to 250, Hero folds! 
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#2
11-18-2005, 02:08 PM
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Re: 22 - QQ overpair wuss fold
I'd raise a little more preflop, to maybe 90 or 100 or so, and I'd push this flop I think. Sometimes you go broke but I think you're ahead most of the time.
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#3
11-18-2005, 02:16 PM
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Re: 22 - QQ overpair wuss fold
[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise a little more preflop, to maybe 90 or 100 or so, and I'd push this flop I think. Sometimes you go broke but I think you're ahead most of the time. [/ QUOTE ] I don't like to make the "hey I have AA-QQ"-raises preflop in level 1-2. I don't want to be too obvious and I don't find it all that hard getting all the money in when I want to postflop anyway. As for the flop, I respect flop minraises more than most posters here. I don't think it has hurt my results doing so.
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#4
11-18-2005, 04:40 PM
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Re: 22 - QQ overpair wuss fold
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'd raise a little more preflop, to maybe 90 or 100 or so, and I'd push this flop I think. Sometimes you go broke but I think you're ahead most of the time. [/ QUOTE ] I don't like to make the "hey I have AA-QQ"-raises preflop in level 1-2. I don't want to be too obvious and I don't find it all that hard getting all the money in when I want to postflop anyway. As for the flop, I respect flop minraises more than most posters here. I don't think it has hurt my results doing so. [/ QUOTE ] why did you even post the hand then
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#5
11-18-2005, 04:51 PM
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Re: 22 - QQ overpair wuss fold
[ QUOTE ]
why did you even post the hand then [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps because it is interesting to hear the views of other posters? I don't know if you are trying to say that we should only post hands where we know everyone agrees with the line we take. Would be pretty pointless to post hands then.
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#6
11-18-2005, 04:58 PM
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Re: 22 - QQ overpair wuss fold
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] why did you even post the hand then [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps because it is interesting to hear the views of other posters? I don't know if you are trying to say that we should only post hands where we know everyone agrees with the line we take. Would be pretty pointless to post hands then. [/ QUOTE ] no, that wasn't my point. my point was that people had given you two ways to change your line, and in both ways, you said that your way was right and you didn't think it lost you money (effectively closing the door on the debate). so why even post the hand?
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#7
11-18-2005, 05:11 PM
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Re: 22 - QQ overpair wuss fold
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'd raise a little more preflop, to maybe 90 or 100 or so, and I'd push this flop I think. Sometimes you go broke but I think you're ahead most of the time. [/ QUOTE ] I don't like to make the "hey I have AA-QQ"-raises preflop in level 1-2. I don't want to be too obvious and I don't find it all that hard getting all the money in when I want to postflop anyway. As for the flop, I respect flop minraises more than most posters here. I don't think it has hurt my results doing so. [/ QUOTE ] i disagree that making a larger raise makes it obvious that you have qq-aa. in fact, it often may appear that your hand is more vulnerable if you raise more, no? as for the bet and min raise on the J66 flop you can only be worried about JJ and x6. does jj or x6 bet into a preflop raiser? probably not. most likely they slowplay. does jj or x6 min raise that flop? not likely. x6 wouldnt have any draws to fear except maybe a jack. youre most certainly good here, probably up against 77-tt and qj-aj (by first to act and min raiser, respectively) i would suspect. im pushing.
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#8
11-18-2005, 05:22 PM
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Re: 22 - QQ overpair wuss fold
[ QUOTE ]
i disagree that making a larger raise makes it obvious that you have qq-aa. in fact, it often may appear that your hand is more vulnerable if you raise more, no? [/ QUOTE ] I think the weaker players at this limit don't care or notice. They play their hand if they want to play their hand, no matter if I raise 5xBB or 8xBB here. But you also have a pretty large group of decent and good players. And the larger raise tells them exactly what you have in my experience. So raising less invites them to call with hands I most often dominate. The drawback is of course that sometimes you get outflopped and you stand to lose all your chips when you have overpair. [ QUOTE ] as for the bet and min raise on the J66 flop you can only be worried about JJ and x6. does jj or x6 bet into a preflop raiser? probably not. most likely they slowplay. does jj or x6 min raise that flop? not likely. x6 wouldnt have any draws to fear except maybe a jack. youre most certainly good here, probably up against 77-tt and qj-aj (by first to act and min raiser, respectively) i would suspect. im pushing. [/ QUOTE ] It makes sense that someone playing x6 would slowplay it. But I often see these milking flop minraises with the nuts or the near nuts and have been burned by it time and time again. Perhaps my sample size is so tilted that I am playing this incorrectly. I think I have to start writing down what minraisers have from now on to see if my interpretation of them is warped. If the flop was J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I would instapush since there was another thing the minraise could mean.
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#9
11-18-2005, 05:42 PM
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Re: 22 - QQ overpair wuss fold
[ QUOTE ]
I think the weaker players at this limit don't care or notice. They play their hand if they want to play their hand, no matter if I raise 5xBB or 8xBB here. [/ QUOTE ] nice, i want to get a lot of chips in pf against weak players with marginal holdings. [ QUOTE ] But you also have a pretty large group of decent and good players. And the larger raise tells them exactly what you have in my experience. So raising less invites them to call with hands I most often dominate. [/ QUOTE ] meh. i think good players are playing mostly strong hands at this point anyway. MAYBE a "good" player will call your raise with AQ jj-99 (the range of hands which you dominate) but they are probably proceeding cautiously unless they hit a set or outflop you (eg. hit an ace with AQ). honestly, the raise is not hugely important. just a minor detail. sometimes my read will be that a larger raise means weakness and sometimes i read it as strength so i guess it can go either way really. [ QUOTE ] It makes sense that someone playing x6 would slowplay it. But I often see these milking flop minraises with the nuts or the near nuts and have been burned by it time and time again. Perhaps my sample size is so tilted that I am playing this incorrectly. I think I have to start writing down what minraisers have from now on to see if my interpretation of them is warped. [/ QUOTE ] yeah i think youre seeing monsters under the bed here. most times a 22er will honestly believe that AJ is by far the best hand on an j66 flop and in their minds "milking" the hand for value. i agree that minraises in some spots are really troubling. but here, all the action on the flop screams relative weakness/pseudo-strength(ie. the better thinks he is stronger than he actually is)
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#10
11-18-2005, 05:19 PM
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Re: 22 - QQ overpair wuss fold
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'd raise a little more preflop, to maybe 90 or 100 or so, and I'd push this flop I think. Sometimes you go broke but I think you're ahead most of the time. [/ QUOTE ] I don't like to make the "hey I have AA-QQ"-raises preflop in level 1-2. I don't want to be too obvious and I don't find it all that hard getting all the money in when I want to postflop anyway. As for the flop, I respect flop minraises more than most posters here. I don't think it has hurt my results doing so. [/ QUOTE ] That's cool it's not like either of our lines are terrible.
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