Two personal beliefs and their consequences - Page 6

#51 12-11-2005, 03:24 AM

I quit smoking too. Isn't it incredible? I am loving it : )

Quitting smoking is really no different from putting your shoes on, or talking to someone, or playing volleyball or doing anything else. You did it because of who you are the experiences / genetics / etc.

imported_luckyme · #52 12-11-2005, 03:25 AM

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You see my problem! (I feel guilty telling people about this and I would much rather never have thought of it).

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Well, sleep easy. You'll have one heck of a time proving determinism exists. Hume will challenge you on the inductive side and the quantum gang will demand evidence that quantum events aren't random. Cause and effect is one of the perspectives we bring to the table, it's a rough one to show to be actually operating.

Your real problem is that free will requires determinism in order to work and there's no known way to prove that determinism exists.

Stu Pidasso · #53 12-11-2005, 03:25 AM

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There is no logical way to defeat this argument (that I have seen). I will not accept illogical arguments against it.

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Find one action that is completely random and determinism falls apart.

Stu

#54 12-11-2005, 03:28 AM

Free will and determinism are contradictions not buddies.

While quantam mechanics may defeat determinism is doesn't help free will which is the real problem; also quantum mechanics is such a small part of the universe (No Pun intended ha ha) that it's not all that important to consider for this viewpoint.

#55 12-11-2005, 03:29 AM

This may be true but it does not help free will.

imported_luckyme · #56 12-11-2005, 03:32 AM

You still have two problems ( given that you can brush away quantum, that operates on every atom in the universe as 'small')
1) prove that determinism exists.
2) illustrate free will without determinism.

chezlaw · #57 12-11-2005, 03:35 AM

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You still have two problems ( given that you can brush away quantum, that operates on every atom in the universe as 'small')
1) prove that determinism exists.
2) illustrate free will without determinism.

[/ QUOTE ]
and I think its in trying to demonstrate 2) that you realise the whole free will/determinism issue is a canard.

chez

#58 12-11-2005, 03:39 AM

#1) What else can be?
#2) Free will is impossible.

hmkpoker · #59 12-11-2005, 03:40 AM

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Because of these beliefs I am ethically off the hock if I kill / rape / steal etc. Not only is it NOT MY CHOICE (because I do not have free will) it's not "wrong" because I don't believe wrong exists.

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It is detrimental to your well-being to kill/rape/steal etc. Your intellect should recognize this, and prohibit such behavior.

Simple.

#60 12-11-2005, 03:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You still have two problems ( given that you can brush away quantum, that operates on every atom in the universe as 'small')
1) prove that determinism exists.
2) illustrate free will without determinism.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you illustrate free will with determinism?? If determinism is the opposite of free will, why then would you want to prove free will while trying to prove determinism?? Still no one has given an example of making a choice that hasn't been influenced by past events.

Also Kathleen, (I'm not saying you're wrong) what arguments do you give to prove determinism? (I'm trying to improve my paper on arguing for determinism)