A series of defenses vs. TAG

JrJordan · #1 07-14-2005, 12:51 PM

Villain in all three hands is a solid TAG. He gets a little over aggro on the button with his raising standards, but nothing out of the ordinary. Stats are 21/15/2. The 3 hands occurred in order over about 4-5 orbits at the same table. Comments on any hand are fine, though I'd like to focus on #3. By Hand 3 I'm sure he's noticed how often I've been playing back at him (and really haven't been to a showdown), so keep that in mind.

Hand 1:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.20 BB

Hand 2:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero raises, MP calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP calls.

River: (6.20 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP folds.

Final Pot: 7.20 BB

Using those two hands vs. same opponents, here's the one I'd like to talk about.

Hand 3:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $5.
Hero calls, MP (poster) checks, Button raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, MP folds.

Rest of the table was fairly passive, and one player had posted already so I thought I'd get a cheap look for a set OOP. Normally this is a rareity in my aresenal so let's not focus on this.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

In hand 1 when Button had a supposed hand he liked, he smooth called my c/r and raised the turn. His 3-bet here seems fishy if he has a premium PP. I decide its worth calling down barring an A or two premium cards. If he checks through the turn, I'd bet out the river.

Turn: (6.20 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.20 BB

Hands 1 and 2 I think I played well. Given those two past hands though, I think I could've played hand 3 much better. I'll give my thoughts after a few responses.

intensify1 · #2 07-14-2005, 01:04 PM

This to me is interestinbg that you have been able to play 3 somewhat different sceneios, all of which you were OOP. I might try, considering the first 2 plays, to 3 bet the flop and lead out the turn if he raises turn fold, if he calls turn check river and barring a scare card, call if he bets river. The 3 bet on flop i think is called for given his tendencies from prior plays when you felt he had a hand worth raising the turn he smooth called the flop raise and kicked you on the turn. In hand 2 there are 3 premium cards by the turn and he is raising with kind of hand here that this board hasnt hit him enough to call you down? Thats my reasoning for the hand 3 play. FWIW

JrJordan · #3 07-14-2005, 01:14 PM

Note that the villain 3-bet the flop on hand 3 already, so the only way for me to do so would be to bet/3-bet. I think that's what you're suggesting but I'm not sure.

If that is indeed your thinking, there is some merit to that. I'm fairly sure villain would raise my flop bet with any 2 overcards or an overpair, allowing me to 3-bet. I'm not sure however if he would cap with overcards, intending to see a free card on the turn. Even this though would allow me to get to showdown and charge 2BB for it, while again folding to a scare card A. Not the plan I had in mind, but still an interesting idea.

cartman · #4 07-14-2005, 01:24 PM

I don't like 1 or 2 because of the size of the board. In both hands there is an Ace (which would be enough for me not to like an aggressive line) and another broadway card. Given that he raised preflop, the chances that he has flopped a draw or a pair is extremely high. That severely reduces the chances of him folding. That leaves value only. I'm not proud enough of K6 or a double gutshot to want to put extra money in without any folding equity.

I like hand 3 because at the time of the flop CR, I feel confident that you are probably in front. After he 3-bets you have a nightmare on your hands, but if he is the type to play a big Ace in this fashion you have to call him down. Of course, and as always, I may be dead wrong.

Cartman

Transference · #5 07-14-2005, 01:29 PM

I think something to consider in this hand is that your folding equity has gone to [censored].
Considering that youve been playing back at villian aggressively I don't actually think battling on the flop does much for you here. If im villian and am up against a smart tag here I certainly expect you to attack me with a wide range here. I also know that you can fold at least a pair HU, maybe top pair.

I think your line is generally fine in this situation. OOP its tough to get too fancy here. I might consider flat calling the flop and c/ring the turn. Quite a few good things could happen for you on the turn. A scare card could easily hit for something like 77-1010. Overcards could miss again, or a flush card could come. In this scenario you might fold a better hand or you might force him to call a draw when you have favorable equity. I think he is almost always betting when checked to on the turn and often 3 betting the flop with a worse hand.

Anyway, I can probably think of some reasons why I don't love this line and why yours or another is better but thats my brainstorming contribution.

intensify1 · #6 07-14-2005, 01:31 PM

My apologies.I forgot to make not of the 3 bet on the turn. With that opening my eyes I agree with cartman here. I can't believe i misread that, lol. sorry.

Catt · #7 07-14-2005, 03:29 PM

Villain knew Hero was a TAG and played well post-flop. Villain was back after 10+ days off poker, playing one table, trying to get his sea legs back, and had a slight buzz going. Villain was pretty cold-decked (his normal VPIP is closer to 26/27). He was occassionally getting played back at by Hero in steal / quasi-steal attempts and was really just trying to feed on the fish at the table. Villain had not seen Hero open-limp UTG before (and figured it was probably a weak hand that would have been folded were it not for the poster).

I was Villain in these hands [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], and would be happy to comment from the other perspective after comments on your post have died down.

JrJordan · #8 07-14-2005, 03:37 PM

Hey Catt,
Figured I might be up against a 2+2er, that flop 3-bet in Hand 3 really through me for a loop on what my line was going to be from there, good work [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

After I just called the flop 3-bet in hand 3 and a "rag" J hit the turn, I was very tempted to go for a checkraise here because I just didn't believe you had the overpair after the first hand and wanted to fold a 6 outer (though I'd fold to a turn 3-bet if you were gutsy enough to do so).

My other thought with the line I took was after 3-betting the flop and turn, I felt I might be able to let go on the river if you bet again instead of taking a free showdown with AK/AQ, but I convinced myself you were playing back at me due to past hands and clicked call.

Okay, your turn.

Catt · #9 07-14-2005, 04:13 PM

If I recall correctly (and after breifly looking through the PT session) we really hadn't tangled (certainly not HU or at least not past the flop) before Hand 1.

In Hand 1 I held A8o. I decided to call and re-evaluate on the turn because I felt pretty sure that you would lead again and felt I most likely had the best hand. I might have called the turn with the intention of raising the river, because I thought it likely that you might get to showdown, but the combination of the double-flush draw and the fact that would have a close call on the turn made not raising the turn seem foolhardy. Even if you had a 5-outer (as you did) I thought the turn would be a tough call with all the paint and suitedness on the board. Finally, I worried a bit that a call on the turn might worry you a bit and you'd check-call a river, especially if another [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hit or perhaps a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

In Hand 2 I held JTo with the T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I wasn't about to lay down to the flop raise, didn't want to 3-bet with the A on board, so called with a plan to re-evaluate on the turn. The Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] gave me a gutshot and the third nut flush draw to go with my third pair, but I didn't feel at all good about raising the turn since I felt I was probably behind to an A or a J (better kicker), the idea that you had the K or J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] was bubbling around in the back of my head, and I just didn't think the chances that you'd fold to the semi-bluff raise was anywhere close enough to justify it. If I K fell on the river, I was sure we'd chop (or I'd win), and if a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] fell on the river I was counting on you Clarkmeistering it by betting (I planned to raise and call a 3-bet) as I hoped to win an extra bet or leave that somewhat sour taste in your mouth that always seems to come with a bet-fold Clarkmeister [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

In Hand 3 I really did think you had a pretty weak hand -- a small PP or an Axs with a tiny x or an Axo with the x a mid card. With such a raggedy flop, I half-expected to be C/R by you holding almost anything, and I bet the flop intending to 3-bet for a free turn card (good read by you). I interpreted the not unexpected C/R as (1) a play with an over and a gutshot (like A3 for example), (2) a small PP, (3) a pair on the board (like A7 foe example). If I was screwed and you flopped a set, I was checking behind in any event on the turn and didn't think a flop cap was likely.

EDIT: Didn't really answer your idea of C/Ring the turn in Hand 3. I would have 3-bet you given I held a J, but might have folded other overs there figuring I didn't have 6 outs or I was drawing dead to a flopped set.

JrJordan · #10 07-14-2005, 05:02 PM

Thanks for the analysis Catt, I'd say you play each of those pretty well. The only comment I have is if I check/raised you on the turn for Hand 3 when that J hit, a 3bet on your part seems a bit excessive. That line would be screaming monster or big bluff, and a 3-bet doesn't help in either case since with a monster I'll cap, and a weak hand like 44 I'll fold. An argument could be made for 3-betting with the intention to check through the river, but if that's the case then you might as well induce another bet from me on the river.

Other than that... ni hans!