Dear Christians: why doesn't god DO something? - Page 4

hmkpoker · #31 10-21-2005, 07:54 PM

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Firstly, there are those who argue that God HAS done something in our lifetime to manifest himself to man. Some believers point to Katrina or The Quake as proof of God's existence; non-believers point to the same as "signs" of God's detachment or apathy towards man.

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No, no, no. That's not how it works.

Katrina is a weather pattern that happened in conjunction with poor levees and an unfortunately low elevation. How should any rational person connect that with the presence of Jesus' dad? That's not even a miracle, there's a simple explanation for it.

How is that supposed to get someone to believe in the Christian god?

Now, if god dropped a Bible the size of Mt. Everest onto Louisiana, NOW you've got something.

hmkpoker · #32 10-21-2005, 08:04 PM

That teacher is incredibly stupid; she's just disproved cancer, distant galaxies, molecules, and tons of things that science has suggested exist.

There's more to having a rational basis for belief than just being able to see it. I won't get into it, because it's an epistemological argument that would take weeks, and we should have the common sense to understand it.

I'll take the shortcut instead. We've all heard "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." And I believe that to be true (and I should also point out at this point that I identify as agnostic, and not atheist). However, presence of evidence drives a pretty compelling point, and outside of a 2,000 year old book, we don't have much going for Christianity in terms of evidence.

Let's see some evidence that we can actually attribute to the Christian god and not to the weather, the laws of physics, modern medicine, or chance.

hmkpoker · #33 10-21-2005, 08:09 PM

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That you and your hubris exists is compelling evidence of HIS mercy.

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Lets see.

On one hand, we've got me, an intelligent animal, who's a little cocky at times.

On the other, we've got a big invisible man who lives in the sky, allegedly knocked up a chick and allowed the resulting baby to be crucified, and apparently I go to hell forever and ever if I don't believe this.

...

Show me the connection here.

chezlaw · #34 10-21-2005, 08:12 PM

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That teacher is incredibly stupid; she's just disproved cancer, distant galaxies, molecules, and tons of things that science has suggested exist.

There's more to having a rational basis for belief than just being able to see it. I won't get into it, because it's an epistemological argument that would take weeks, and we should have the common sense to understand it.

I'll take the shortcut instead. We've all heard "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." And I believe that to be true (and I should also point out at this point that I identify as agnostic, and not atheist). However, presence of evidence drives a pretty compelling point, and outside of a 2,000 year old book, we don't have much going for Christianity in terms of evidence.

Let's see some evidence that we can actually attribute to the Christian god and not to the weather, the laws of physics, modern medicine, or chance.

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I think you missed the point.

A teacher says something silly
A child believes it is literal truth.

chez

Jeff V · #35 10-21-2005, 08:24 PM

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On the other, we've got a big invisible man who lives in the sky, allegedly knocked up a chick and allowed the resulting baby to be crucified, and apparently I go to hell forever and ever if I don't believe this.

...

Show me the connection here.

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That attitude says you already have it all figured out, so why bother? You should rethink your agnosticism.

#36 10-21-2005, 08:30 PM

In response to some of the arguments from the god defenders here:

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miracles by themselves neither can nor will lead you to belief

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Yes they could and would. There are a number of miracles from the Bible that if they were to occur today, I would fall to my knees instantly and worship god. I'm not holding my breath.

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Google "Miracle of the Sun" and "Fatima"

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I can't remember the explanations off the top of my head right now, but I remember reading some insightful other sides to these stories which explained away these supposed miracles. I know that believers will just claim that skeptics won't believe anything. I disagree. An omnipotent god could do so many things that no skeptic could argue with. He was supposedly willing to do so in Biblical times, but won't now. I think you have to imagine some contrived motive to explain this.

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The point of faith is that you dont have proof. If God showed himself all hte timeyoud have no choice BUT to believe in him. He obviously doesntwant that.

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Hey, what do you know, here's one of these contrived motives. But for some reason, the god of the Bible sure didn't have these faith requirements for those people in the Bible who were privledged enough to witness the miracles first-hand. Maybe he's a flip-flopper. Seems like a likely trait for an all-knowing, fair, and non-arbitrary god.

I'm left to come to a bizarre conclusion. Maybe the god of the Bible was made up. If you are a believer and don't understand how I can possibly not see the self-evident truth of the Christian god, then just think about how you feel about every other religion that the world has ever known and how unbelievable you find those to be.

And then just add 1.

Jeff V · #37 10-21-2005, 08:33 PM

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him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him

her, while we're at it.

awwwwwwh, am I in trouble now or something?

let's see him strike me down tonight. That would give a little insight. I'll give you another update tonight to let you know that I'm still alive, and that god, if he exists, doesn't have the balls or the common sense to do something that is suggestive of his existence.

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You sound like a whiny kid here. If you missed my last reply- you should rethink your agnosticism since you have the balls to make statements like that.

Jeff V · #38 10-21-2005, 08:48 PM

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Hey, what do you know, here's one of these contrived motives. But for some reason, the god of the Bible sure didn't have these faith requirements for those people in the Bible who were privledged enough to witness the miracles first-hand. Maybe he's a flip-flopper. Seems like a likely trait for an all-knowing, fair, and non-arbitrary god.

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Have you studied the Bible? Would you? Why do you feel like you need a mass miracle to come to faith? If God does exist how can you question His motives? Would you be satisfied if God performed a mini- miracle that 17 people saw? Would 17 make you drop to your knees or just scratch your head? What's the cutoff? What are you really looking for?

Go ahead.

#39 10-21-2005, 09:31 PM

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Have you studied the Bible?

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I don't know what you consider to be adequate study, but the Bible was drilled into me for my entire pre-adult life. I think I'm more than knowledgable on it to fairly comment.

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Why do you feel like you need a mass miracle to come to faith?

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I don't need a mass miracle, although that would do it for me. What I do need is something that makes logical sense. Christianity doesn't even come close to reaching that threshold for me. I don't see one good reason why I should be expected to believe in the stories of Christianity just because they are popular in my culture but someone in another country shouldn't believe in the stories of the most popular religion of their country. If you hand me a holy book and say that it was written by/via god, and I ask you how do you know this and you reply "because the book says so" that just doesn't cut it for me. I'm surprised it does for so many others.

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Would you be satisfied if God performed a mini- miracle that 17 people saw? Would 17 make you drop to your knees or just scratch your head? What's the cutoff?

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It depends on the miracle and/or who the 17 people were who claimed that it happened. I'm looking for something that defies all reason. Here's one thing though that baffles me. If god doesn't have anything against giving full-on proof to some people, why wouldn't he give it to me. If he sent his son down to tell people about him, why would he only do so for a few select lottery winners in a particular window of time on a particular spot on the earth? Did he not care if someone on the opposite side of the world heard the good news? It makes no sense to me unless it was just a made up story passed along through the ages like every other made up god story has been passed along at one time or another in every corner of the world since man evolved enough brain cells to come up with god stories.

#40 10-21-2005, 09:31 PM

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What are you really looking for?

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An all-knowing, all-powerful God would KNOW what evidence would be enough for me to believe in Him, and would be able to supply that evidence.

But, if I had to come up with something: God can broadcast an image of Jesus on television stating that in 5 minutes he will make the moon disappear, and bring it back in 7 days. Then, he does it... scientists verify that the moon is gone. In 7 days, it reappears, with the words "God Was Here" engraved in it with mile-high letters.

I'm sure God... being God... could come up with something even better, though.