$50 PLO8 hand

I started playing PLO8 a little over a month ago at the $10 and $20 tables, so im just begining at this game, and went to play a little at the 50s.


- 2 sitting in seat 1 with $27.74
- 3 sitting in seat 2 with $47.75
- 4 sitting in seat 3 with $84.70
- ubermensch2k sitting in seat 6 with $24.25
** Dealing card to ubermensch2k: 10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
1 called - $0.50
2 called - $0.50
3 called - $0.50
4 called - $0.50
v called - $0.50
w folded
ubermensch2k called - $0.50
x folded
y called - $0.50
z checked
** Dealing the flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
y checked
z checked
1 checked
2 bet - $0.50
3 called - $0.50
4 called - $0.50
v folded
ubermensch2k called - $0.50
y folded
z folded
1 folded
** Dealing the turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 bet - $1.00
3 called - $1.00
4 raised - $4.00
ubermensch2k raised - $7.00
2 called - $7.00
3 called - $7.00
4 called - $7.00
** Dealing the river: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 checked
3 checked
4 bet - $34.00
ubermensch2k went all-in - $16.25
2 folded
3 folded


Preflop: Is this a raise? With that many limpers and A2s i think i should have raised at least to build the pot a little.
Flop: i should have raised here, right?, i dont know what was i thinking.
Turn: bet the pot?

Comments?

What to do: Pot raise flop, pot raise turn.

Why:
1. It's almost certain you have the best hand, so you should be raising for Sklansky Bucks.
2. ^, so you should be charging draws to draw out on you. You won't make anything if they hit.
3. ^, so you should be getting money from second best hands now. They won't pay you anything once they miss, or scare cards come.
3. ^, so you should be building a huge pot to get all in on the turn.
4. It's a happy looking draw heavy board. People will call with a lot of hands, you don't need to be afraid of people folding.
5. This is $50PL, you don't have to be afraid of people folding.
6. It feels good to raise with the nuts.


Preflop is just a call. You've got a fairly spaced out hand that's quite unlikely to flop a scooper. See a flop cheaply.

[FeliciaLee]

Very good analysis. I do the same kind of thinking when I play poker.

[ QUOTE ]
4. It's a happy looking draw heavy board. People will call with a lot of hands, you don't need to be afraid of people folding.
5. This is $50PL, you don't have to be afraid of people folding.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hate it when I come to the conclusion that there are so many draws and that so many players saw the flop (with a pot-sized pre-flop raise, I might add), so when I flop the nuts, and pot it, I'm going to get callers for sure. And then the nightmare, everyone folds [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[DrewOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
I started playing PLO8 a little over a month ago at the $10 and $20 tables, so im just begining at this game, and went to play a little at the 50s.


- 2 sitting in seat 1 with $27.74
- 3 sitting in seat 2 with $47.75
- 4 sitting in seat 3 with $84.70
- ubermensch2k sitting in seat 6 with $24.25
** Dealing card to ubermensch2k: 10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
1 called - $0.50
2 called - $0.50
3 called - $0.50
4 called - $0.50
v called - $0.50
w folded
ubermensch2k called - $0.50
x folded
y called - $0.50
z checked
** Dealing the flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
y checked
z checked
1 checked
2 bet - $0.50
3 called - $0.50
4 called - $0.50
v folded
ubermensch2k called - $0.50
y folded
z folded
1 folded
** Dealing the turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 bet - $1.00
3 called - $1.00
4 raised - $4.00
ubermensch2k raised - $7.00
2 called - $7.00
3 called - $7.00
4 called - $7.00
** Dealing the river: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 checked
3 checked
4 bet - $34.00
ubermensch2k went all-in - $16.25
2 folded
3 folded


Preflop: Is this a raise? With that many limpers and A2s i think i should have raised at least to build the pot a little.
Flop: i should have raised here, right?, i dont know what was i thinking.
Turn: bet the pot?

Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take my comments with a grain of salt, as I am just learning this game as well.

Pot raise that flop. You have a 2nd nut but vulnerable high, but you have a low backup. It also changes the dynamics of the hand, and will likely make another naked A2 think twice about sticking around. If your high holds up then you want the other lows to chase, but your high is vulnerable. Raising it now may let you avoid getting quartered for the low if your high gets cracked.

Shove it all in on that turn.

Curse that river, as you likely got sucked out on.

Hey, no one said this was easy.

[jthegreat]

Raise preflop. Call the flop. Jam a safe card on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop. Call the flop. Jam a safe card on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, care to explain why? I see no advantage to a preflop raise, you have [censored] all chance of flopping anything playable with this hand. There's no direct equity gain in raising preflop, nor do you knock out any hands that would give you trouble.

And calling the flop is madness imo. The odds are good you have the best hand, and you should be raising it up. The 80% of the time a non flush card comes on the turn, you want a big pot so you can get decent money in. Calling the flop won't achieve that, nor will it make you money from donkeys on draws.

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
I see no advantage to a preflop raise, you have [censored] all chance of flopping anything playable with this hand. There's no direct equity gain in raising preflop, nor do you knock out any hands that would give you trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]
He could very well raise pre-flop, since he has position, and if he raises pre-flop some of the time.

I subscribe to the theory of either raising with a variety of hands, or not raising at all pre-flop (there are obvious exceptions to this).

I play all of the time against extremely transparent players who will ONLY raise pre-flop with AAxx or A2xx. This is the worst strategy imaginable, IMO. I know exactly what they have, and can outplay them easily. In LO8 it is almost suicidal to play like this.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with a pre-flop raise here, as long as he does it with more hands than AAxx and A2xx. He definitely has positional advantage.

I agree with what you wrote, but I'd rather raise A34x or AKJ9 in this spot than A26T. It's total trash except on a small percentage of flops and will usually end in heartache and pain. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

How much do you propose raising here? Pot? And how do follow up on what will likely be a totally missed flop? On a two low flop? The trouble with raising low equity, low playability hands like this is that unless you follow through with bluffs, you become transparent post flop when you do hit.

[jthegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
Um, care to explain why? I see no advantage to a preflop raise, you have [censored] all chance of flopping anything playable with this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think that an A2s has some kind of equity edge against 5 preflop callers when you're in position? How weak-tight do you play? He should pot this or at least put in a big raise.

[ QUOTE ]
And calling the flop is madness imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen different players advocate different plays when you are holding a vulnerable nuts. I don't have a problem with jamming the flop, but I also don't have a problem with calling the flop and jamming the turn.

<font color="blue">A2s has an equity edge in LP against 5 callers</font>

Not this A2s. It's getting a playable flop with positive expectation less than 10% of the time (and then just barely). And five callers are bad for your likely equity, not good. You'll just about never make a decent high with this hand and you're likely splitting for low if it does come (or getting counterfeited). I believe you're directly losing money by raising this preflop.

<font color="blue">How weak-tight do you play?</font>

Did you read my reply to Felicia above? I'd rather raise A34x or KQJ9 in position than this particular hand.

<font color="blue">I've seen different players advocate different plays when you are holding a vulnerable nuts. I don't have a problem with jamming the flop, but I also don't have a problem with calling the flop and jamming the turn.</font>

This is a unique hand, not a generic 'vulnerable nuts' hand. It's very different to say, top set on a two flush, two straight board. You have a hand that's likely the best, and is still likely to be good on the turn. You have to start jamming the flop and making money from inferior hands at this point. There are a huge number of inferior hands that will pay you off now but won't later if scare cards come or their draw suddenly doesn't look as good with one card to come. And you have to build a big enough pot so you can all in on the turn if you hand is still good.

This is NOT a hand to wait and see if the turn is a safe card. Your equity is unlikely to increase past its current point with another card. This is very different to say top set on two low, two flush board where a safe turn card will increase your equity greatly.