Tired of Getting Pushed Around - Page 3

tiltaholic · #1 12-12-2005, 04:07 PM

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Each of these hands look to be worth > 7 outs. We are getting 5.25:1 + implied odds so that should be enough to see a river card. Add in a few bluffing outs and the times that he gives up on the end, and it looks like a straight forward call to me.

Ok so now show me where I went wrong.... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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ok, well, I was thinking around 6 outs each. I don't think implied odds are good for a pair, but for a straight you are detting 2 bets on the river each time, so a turn call is okay. What river cards are you bluff-raising in hand 1? In hand 2 you could maybe bluff raise an A, but that's about it.

Just to clarify, when you said that we need to pop him with air about 20% of the time, did you mean 3bet the turn or raise the river? Also, how did you arrive at 20%? I would never have considered how often we need to raise with air, and am curious why we would.

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i'm guessing it's a game theory kindof thing.

i'm sortof coming into this blind... but raising with air has to be a part of a balanced strategy for maximizing profit -- since otherwise (in theory) villain will always fold to our raises if we always have the goods, whereas we'd like him to call incorrectly. (and conversly, if they think we always have the goods, they'll fold when we have air)

edit - fantam beat me to it and explained it better.

adsman · #2 12-12-2005, 02:48 PM

I think that calling down hand 1 might have made the following hand easier to play.

#3 12-12-2005, 03:00 PM

hand1: this is close because we have a gutshot and the overcards, but the pot is small, so we should probably fold. What is a TAG BB defending with that we are ahead of or can draw given the pot size, and beat? Not much I think.

hand2: probably folding this pre-flop. wow post-flop, this looks about the same as hand1, but a bit thinner as we only have one overcard.

all-in-all, we should probably pick some better hands to play against this guy

Songwind · #4 12-12-2005, 03:17 PM

I don't think I raise K9s with this guy on the button, personally.

#5 12-12-2005, 03:36 PM

:grunch:

Hand 1: Good fold.

Hand 2: I wouldn't have raised preflop or even played that hand. I would check it through on the flop.

Aaron W. · #6 12-12-2005, 03:50 PM

There's nothing wrong. Sometimes you should 3-bet or call and raise the turn. However, you must remember that villain can have just a weak hand, but it's still ahead of yours. I'm convinced that in all of these hands, the villains had two overcards and were playing the same chasing game that you want to play. (Edit: What I had here a moment ago wasn't correct. The second two cases were chasing 6 outs and getting 6:1. It barely works out to barely profitable if you include one more bet on the river. However, they could just as easily be drawing to 3 outs, making it highly UNprofitable.)

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises, 5 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

===

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO calls, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero raises, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (7.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

===

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 raises, 6 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

===

And here's an example of why you should be careful when you *DO* have overcards (especially an ace or king):

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, MP3 raises, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kd 6d (two pair, kings and sixes).
MP3 has Ah Kc (two pair, kings and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 16.25 BB.

#7 12-12-2005, 04:18 PM

At .5/1 Party tables I think it is very read dependent on the person you are heads up with. There are several people who simply won't fold if they have a peice of a flop heads up. Not when there are over cards on the board, not when they've been c/r'd and re-raised and bet into on every street. Yes, you want to play those people. A lot. But you also need to show down a hand with them.

Aaron W. · #8 12-12-2005, 07:18 PM

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At .5/1 Party tables I think it is very read dependent on the person you are heads up with. There are several people who simply won't fold if they have a peice of a flop heads up. Not when there are over cards on the board, not when they've been c/r'd and re-raised and bet into on every street. Yes, you want to play those people. A lot. But you also need to show down a hand with them.

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In my mind, these are automatic check-raise situations unless I have a read to suggest that a different play is better. Flop texture is a very important consideration. The odds are against them having a pair, and therefore in favor of me having the best hand. I don't care if they're calling down because most of the time they're calling down with ace-high and I win money. It's not about driving them out of the pot (though I don't mind if they go), but extracting value when I figure to have the best hand most of the time. I'm perfectly willing to show down my hand against them.

MikeTexas · #9 12-22-2005, 07:55 AM

I dont see what the big deal is. Both your hands are relaitvely weak and the pot is not very big.

I discovered that one of my biggest leaks was giving too much action in small pots with marginal hands such as these. I would get caught up in the thought that the other guy was "making a move" on me because he put me on unimproved overs. Then I would end up giving too much action with marginal hands. Typically, the guy would have some sort of a hand, (middle/bottom pair or a small pocket pair) and I would throw away too much money with these weak hands.

In a situation such as this where rag flops, you dont make a pair and youre draws are very weak its best most of the time just to surrender the pot. That might sound like a weak tight strategy to some, but giviing too much action in small pots with weak hands like this is something I consider a major leak. Youre opponent will have a legitmate hand probably about 1/3 of the time and hell be semi bluffing with a stronger draw then yours about 1/3 of the time which means hell either have a hand that is favored to win or draw out on you 2/3 of the time.....not a good situation for Hero.

Give up the pot...its small. Youll have the best of it in the long run....youve got position on Villian and hes probably calling with hands that are much weaker then yours. Dont let youre ego provoke you into giving too much action in small pots with hands that probably wont show a profit.

And BTW, if you are going to play weak hands like that after the turn you should raise the turn as soon as you pick up the gutshot if you believe your opponent is bluffing or "taking shots at you". This strategy is better then checking and calling on the turn and river because a) you may induce your opponent to fodl on the turn if he is bluffing b) you can check the river after he checks to you assuming he calls your turn raise c) you can bet the river if you improve or even if you dont and might be able to induce him to fold. Either way, raising the turn is correct if youre going to give any action at all.

-Mike

#10 12-12-2005, 05:02 PM

These are great examples and add to an already very nice thread. Thanks, Aaron!