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  #1  
Old 11-30-2005, 02:18 PM
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Default Leak #1 Overcards.

In an effort to actually improve my game, I have decided to actually post some of the leaks I feel that I have.

Leak number one (Scenario)

3/6 or 4/8 live on a table full of LAPs with a LAG or 2 thrown in.

I am on the button or cutoff with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
4-5 limps to me and I raise it up. 5 see the flop.

Flop J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

All check to me I bet. 3 call.
Turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] All check to me. I fire the second barrel (Hell, I might get em to fold) 2 call

River 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] All check to me and I figure the only way that I am going to win this approximate 10 BB hand is with a bet so I fire again and lose to a call from a player with TP/WK or MP/TK. I think overall I am losing money on overcards.

Any ideas? Am I too aggressive with position?

Now that I think about it, I don't always do this just when I have position. I can do this from almost any position as well.

If I check the flop, how many outs do you count the over cards as having, on a ragged flop, a flop with 2 suits, and a flop that is like JT7?

Tomorrow, Am I too aggressive when the flop pairs?
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2005, 02:26 PM
thirddan thirddan is offline
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Default Re: Leak #1 Overcards.

wow...you put in 2.5 big bets more than you should have here...

preflop: you raise because you have an equity edge...good job [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

flop: 5/6 players saw this flop, A hi is not the best hand, you will not get everyone to fold in this big pot, take your free card...it is costing you money to bet this flop...

turn: take the free card now please, you paid for it with your flop bet, if he called the flop bet then this card is unlikely to have changed his mind, unless he had something like AK (unlikely) because most other hands that peel the flop will either have a pair or a gutshot (QT/89)

river: your bet is not gonna pick up the pot here if the guy got this far, just turn your hand over and cross your fingers, these postflop bets with nothing in large pots against large fields are costing you a lot of money...

so in recap: preflop good, check flop, check turn, check river...
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2005, 02:32 PM
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Default Re: Leak #1 Overcards.

Playing overcards sucks.

This answer makes "very much" sense, though.
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  #4  
Old 11-30-2005, 02:38 PM
TripleH68 TripleH68 is offline
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Default Re: Leak #1 Overcards.

Many of the better players on these boards have said it over and over...you need to not only understand what the better play is, but also understand why it is the better play.

I play online and live low limit - adjusting to the loose/passives in the live games is very important. They call. They like calling. Trying to make them fold is usually not a winning play.

In your hand example:

Preflop: Raise is fine. Value with a hand that plays well multiway. Get the money in.

Flop: I am not saying it is wrong to bet here. Just realize that when you do any pair and any gutshot is getting odds to call. And in the type of game you described you will not know where you stand because TP is likely not raising.

Turn: Pot is big yes. Whether to bet depends on how many callers are in and what your read is on these players.
I usually give up on these hands and take the free look at the river.

Betting the turn and the river UI is a bad case of wishful thinking.

Edit: to say that I remember starting out when it felt very funny to raise preflop and then quit on the hand. Especially live people will criticize you and such. Get used to it.
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2005, 03:02 PM
krimson krimson is offline
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Default Re: Leak #1 Overcards.

Too many opponents in this hand, just check behind on the flop. After 3 players call on the flop you should definitely not be betting the turn again with ace high!
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2005, 03:02 PM
Scotch78 Scotch78 is offline
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Default Re: Leak #1 Overcards.

It should be pretty obvious from other responses what you did wrong, so I'll chime in a little something different. Let's say the player to your immediate right bets. The pot should be laying you about 12:1. This is a pretty uncoordinated board, so wheras I'd normally discount my 6 outs to 3, I'll give myself at least 4 here, and 6 outs total. So, I want to see the turn, and I'm going to see it with a raise. There's no flush draw and only one open-ender, but lots of gutshots and 5-outers, so raising will take away most people's odds. Also, it could easily push out A4 and it's unlikely the bettor has a very strong hand (88 and 44 being the prime exceptions) and the game is passive, so the chances of getting a free card are high.

Scott
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2005, 03:45 PM
Nikademus Nikademus is offline
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Default Re: Leak #1 Overcards.

pre-flop: good play

flop: This requires a table read. Some passive players just want to see a flop, then will fold if it misses. So whether you take your free card here or try to get one on the turn depends on who you are up against. The one main lesson I've learned these past two months is it's ok to check/fold overcard connectors.

turn: check here regardless of what you did on the flop.

river: check/fold
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  #8  
Old 11-30-2005, 03:53 PM
BWebb BWebb is offline
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Default Re: Leak #1 Overcards.

Most everything has been said so far but let me add to the discussion. On a passive live table, I bet the flop here. A high percentage of time in these games, the passive players will check to you on the turn as well and you get to see the river for one small bet. However, I don't bet every flop this way. I bet the flop on this board because I have two overcards and two backdoor draws, therefore there is more of a reason I will want to see the river. If, on the other hand, the flop were J-7-4 no diamond, I'm checking the flop because I'm only drawing to overcards.
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  #9  
Old 11-30-2005, 03:57 PM
TheHip41 TheHip41 is offline
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Default Re: Leak #1 Overcards.

check the flop, fold the turn, fold the river
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  #10  
Old 11-30-2005, 04:45 PM
Buckmulligan Buckmulligan is offline
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Default Re: Leak #1 Overcards.

I don't hate the flop bet, but i don't like the turn and river. I think we have the best hand or fold a better hand i.e. small pocket pair 20% of the time maybe, and it also may buy us a free card on the turn. If it buys us a free card, which it should have here had we not bet, it's not bad at all.
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