TPTK early in the PS $500k

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would call the 500 and call almost any bet on the flop. Do you want to risk it all with AJ? If you call and fold the river, you still have 1750...better than nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]

That can't be right - calling a pot-bet on turn, and folding to a pot-bet on the river when an offsuit deuce comes. It means you made a mistake on one of the streets

[/ QUOTE ]

just because this is the case doesn't mean we can't use new information to make a better decision. the fact that he maintained aggression on the river is a pretty good indicator that he has us beat and has a great hand (definitely a stronger indicator than his flop or his turn bet).

just saying, while it may be the case that we made a mistake by calling the turn, it doesn't mean we have to compound that by calling the river, given new information.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree, calling the river can't be good. but before you call the turn you should ask yourself "if he bets the pot again, can i call?" if not, what cards do you want to hit to be able to make a call. i honestly can't think of any. this is why i would fold the turn.

this also shows why it pays to be aggressive. if you raise the flop, you aren't put in this situation. the hand basically ends there.

and regarding you're comment about not folding TPTK, that might work for you in a $10-$50, but it is certainly a leak when you have 125BB and someone OOP firing pot-sized bets into you on an uncoordinated board.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
raising the turn pretty much commits u imo

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously, the raise there would be a push because anything else is sort of absurd.

i was saying, having called the turn, we can still fold the river.


and, re: dmk, I guess what you are hoping when you call the turn is that the guy will slow the hell down. And he didn't. So we're clearly beat. Well, not clearly, but it certainly looks that way. But we did get one more piece of information before we had to make our decision. It just cost us too much.


If he 3-bets you on the flop, are you folding straight away? Or calling and folding to a turn bet?

What I'm suggesting with that question is that I wonder if the OPs line (assuming he folds the river) may have been the cheapest way away from this hand. Mine clearly wasn't =P.

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking about something I never do but... anyway tell me what you think.

If you don't fold - Min-raise (500 more) as if you have a monster and want to pot commit him for a river bet. If he calls, he should not lead the river so you can as well check, if he raises, he definitely have a monster and you can fold knowing you are beat.

What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

It accomplishes the same thing a flop raise does, but costs more. In short, ya, its a good idea, if you do it on the flop.

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raising the turn pretty much commits u imo

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously, the raise there would be a push because anything else is sort of absurd.

i was saying, having called the turn, we can still fold the river.


and, re: dmk, I guess what you are hoping when you call the turn is that the guy will slow the hell down. And he didn't. So we're clearly beat. Well, not clearly, but it certainly looks that way. But we did get one more piece of information before we had to make our decision. It just cost us too much.


[/ QUOTE ]
i hear ya, i just feel like we got that information on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]

If he 3-bets you on the flop, are you folding straight away? Or calling and folding to a turn bet?


[/ QUOTE ]
folding
[ QUOTE ]

What I'm suggesting with that question is that I wonder if the OPs line (assuming he folds the river) may have been the cheapest way away from this hand. Mine clearly wasn't =P.

[/ QUOTE ]
i still think raising the flop is cheapest, since you get to actually win the hand sometimes.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree, calling the river can't be good. but before you call the turn you should ask yourself "if he bets the pot again, can i call?" if not, what cards do you want to hit to be able to make a call. i honestly can't think of any. this is why i would fold the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

i think it's reasonable to say, "he'll give up and either check the river or bet it small with QJ/JT/TT/etc but bet big against with a set." if you think that, calling the turn and folding the river makes perfect sense. once i call the turn, this is the line i'd probably take.

i'd also raise the flop. honestly, i'm not sure what i'd do against a 3-bet. i know folding is the "right" thing to do, but there are so many qualifiers for the big sunday tournaments. i guess (hope) i'd find a fold.

[stevepa]

Well, I played this hand like crap. Particularly the river. I just couldn't come up with a hand he would play like this. So I hoped he had KJ and is terrible and called expecting to see J8 or 88. He had K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ...? I'm still convinced the river call was awful and I like MLG and dmk's arguments for raising the flop.

Thanks to all those who replied,

Steve

A stone cold bluff?! Holy crap!

I think this shows how important it is to raise that flop!!

That is too funny. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]