Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Other Topics > Politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 10-23-2005, 12:20 AM
tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: actually pvn
Posts: 0
Default Re: Government\'s role in our society

[ QUOTE ]
BCPVP's argument is better when it comes to justice and the police force. Having justice and the police force on sale to those who buy it sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would corrupt arbitrators have any credibility? Of course not. Only in a state-dominated monopoly justice system can corruption flourish.

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, to have a true justice system, everyone needs to buy into it and have a say as to the punishments and the crimes, and this is pure government.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need government for this. Reasonable people can agree that unprovoked force and fraud are undesirable.

[ QUOTE ]
If Murder should be outlawed, and I think we can safely say it should, someone needs to uphold it without getting paid money from an individual to investigate it, for it is in the public good.

[/ QUOTE ]

What difference does it make where the money comes from as long as the crime is investigated and prosecuted?

There are more ways to fund private enforcement than just a pay-per-case basis.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, there are many crimes, like extortion and slavery that take place without a complaintant. Without a public police force, these would never be investigated.


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Wow. A slave has no complaint? Come on. This doesn't require much imagination.

[ QUOTE ]
I am saying that without government, we would not have interstate highways right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. We'd have something better, more efficient, not paid for with stolen funds.

[ QUOTE ]
Government can do it more easily because it has the wide range of funds and support necessary to build a road, and will not extort people to drive on these roads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Government does it more easily because it uses force. Does that ease excuse the violence?

How would private road owners "extort people to drive"?

[ QUOTE ]
When a single combined effort is more efficient than many individual efforts, government should be used.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if it's coercive? It doesn't matter, because no scenario exists where centrally-planned effort will outperfrom market effort.

[ QUOTE ]
Space exploration is a very interesting case. While you would rather have many individual efforts, space exploration costs a lot of money, and there's no profit at the end of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there's no profit, why is it worth doing?

[ QUOTE ]
Once the private sector becomes interested enough in space exploration, the government can start pulling out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should the government be in it before such point where private parties are interested?

[ QUOTE ]
But right now, one of the very few organizations that is interested enough and has the funds to support space exploration and research is the government.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, those funds are ill-gotten. If the benefit is enough to justify the theft of the funds, surely a private party could pursue it profitably without government intervention.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-23-2005, 03:17 AM
lastchance lastchance is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 766
Default Re: Government\'s role in our society

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BCPVP's argument is better when it comes to justice and the police force. Having justice and the police force on sale to those who buy it sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would corrupt arbitrators have any credibility? Of course not. Only in a state-dominated monopoly justice system can corruption flourish.


[/ QUOTE ]
You're not saying that the private sector has no corruption, right?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Plus, to have a true justice system, everyone needs to buy into it and have a say as to the punishments and the crimes, and this is pure government.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need government for this. Reasonable people can agree that unprovoked force and fraud are undesirable.


[/ QUOTE ]
Can reasonable people agree on the exact length of the sentence for these crimes? Can you make sure that everyone buys into and has a say in the justice system? Perhaps we should have a public forum to debate and decide what the crimes are, and their punishments. A decision making process for these laws would be very useful, huh?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If Murder should be outlawed, and I think we can safely say it should, someone needs to uphold it without getting paid money from an individual to investigate it, for it is in the public good.

[/ QUOTE ]

What difference does it make where the money comes from as long as the crime is investigated and prosecuted?

There are more ways to fund private enforcement than just a pay-per-case basis.


[/ QUOTE ]
Would you like to give an example?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, there are many crimes, like extortion and slavery that take place without a complaintant. Without a public police force, these would never be investigated.


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Wow. A slave has no complaint? Come on. This doesn't require much imagination.


[/ QUOTE ]
Terror can be a great reason not to go to the police.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am saying that without government, we would not have interstate highways right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. We'd have something better, more efficient, not paid for with stolen funds.


[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... Something better and more efficient? Would you mind explaining that part, or are you just objecting to taxes on a moral level?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Government can do it more easily because it has the wide range of funds and support necessary to build a road, and will not extort people to drive on these roads.

[/ QUOTE ]
Government does it more easily because it uses force. Does that ease excuse the violence?

How would private road owners "extort people to drive"?


[/ QUOTE ]
Supply and demand cost of using a road is far greater than the actual cost of building a road. Use your imagination, see what happens. I do not see how private roads in this day and age would work more effectively than public ones.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When a single combined effort is more efficient than many individual efforts, government should be used.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if it's coercive? It doesn't matter, because no scenario exists where centrally-planned effort will outperfrom market effort.


[/ QUOTE ]
Who cares if it's coercive? You have a choice between two crappy options, and one "forced" good one, that actually seems to work. I'll limit my options as to take the better one.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Space exploration is a very interesting case. While you would rather have many individual efforts, space exploration costs a lot of money, and there's no profit at the end of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there's no profit, why is it worth doing?


[/ QUOTE ]
Einstein didn't earn a lot of money for the general theory of relativity. There's no short-term profit in string theory. I don't think we should give up on those yet.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once the private sector becomes interested enough in space exploration, the government can start pulling out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should the government be in it before such point where private parties are interested?


[/ QUOTE ]
Because you never know when +EV occurs. Because there are huge benefits towards long-term research that no one can predict.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But right now, one of the very few organizations that is interested enough and has the funds to support space exploration and research is the government.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, those funds are ill-gotten. If the benefit is enough to justify the theft of the funds, surely a private party could pursue it profitably without government intervention.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't give a damn, and considering how +EV government is over anarchy (sudan), I really don't think it's a smart idea to care that you are force to pay for government services.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-23-2005, 08:35 AM
tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: actually pvn
Posts: 0
Default Re: Government\'s role in our society

[ QUOTE ]
You're not saying that the private sector has no corruption, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Read again. Private sector corruption in inevitably tied to government regulation.

[ QUOTE ]
Can reasonable people agree on the exact length of the sentence for these crimes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do they need to? Why? We don't have that currently.

[ QUOTE ]
Can you make sure that everyone buys into and has a say in the justice system?

[/ QUOTE ]

A free market in justice would give everyone more buyin than any current system.

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps we should have a public forum to debate and decide what the crimes are, and their punishments. A decision making process for these laws would be very useful, huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what the free market is. A decision making process. There's just no single person making any decision.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What difference does it make where the money comes from as long as the crime is investigated and prosecuted?

There are more ways to fund private enforcement than just a pay-per-case basis.


[/ QUOTE ]
Would you like to give an example?

[/ QUOTE ]

Insurance.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Really? Wow. A slave has no complaint? Come on. This doesn't require much imagination.


[/ QUOTE ]
Terror can be a great reason not to go to the police.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how does a state-monopoly police force have any advantage here?

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... Something better and more efficient? Would you mind explaining that part, or are you just objecting to taxes on a moral level?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I object to taxes on a moral level. Additionally, government spending is inherently inefficient. There really isn't any argument here.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Government does it more easily because it uses force. Does that ease excuse the violence?

How would private road owners "extort people to drive"?


[/ QUOTE ]
Supply and demand cost of using a road is far greater than the actual cost of building a road. Use your imagination, see what happens. I do not see how private roads in this day and age would work more effectively than public ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if the market doesn't value roads in their current form enough to justify their construction, can't we conclude that current roads are wasteful? Why should we build them if nobody wants to pay for them?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When a single combined effort is more efficient than many individual efforts, government should be used.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if it's coercive? It doesn't matter, because no scenario exists where centrally-planned effort will outperfrom market effort.


[/ QUOTE ]
Who cares if it's coercive? You have a choice between two crappy options, and one "forced" good one, that actually seems to work. I'll limit my options as to take the better one.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what if I don't agree that the "forced" option is "better"? You're oppressing me by forcing me to accept your opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there's no profit, why is it worth doing?


[/ QUOTE ]
Einstein didn't earn a lot of money for the general theory of relativity. There's no short-term profit in string theory. I don't think we should give up on those yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not answering the question.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once the private sector becomes interested enough in space exploration, the government can start pulling out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should the government be in it before such point where private parties are interested?


[/ QUOTE ]
Because you never know when +EV occurs. Because there are huge benefits towards long-term research that no one can predict.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. But the private sector is demonstrably better at conducting pure research than government-directed efforts.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't give a damn, and considering how +EV government is over anarchy (sudan), I really don't think it's a smart idea to care that you are force to pay for government services.

[/ QUOTE ]

The situation in the Sudan (I assume you're referring to Darfur) is not anarchy. It's a direct result of government.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-23-2005, 07:28 PM
lastchance lastchance is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 766
Default Re: Government\'s role in our society

Insurance is an example of how a privately owned police force would work, but would a police force running on insurance funds investigate crimes where the dead body is not found, where there are no complaintants, where the victims of a crime do not have the money to buy insurance, as so often happens. What about white collar crime, when you don't know who's getting screwed directly?

Well, you don't need complete agreement about the crimes and punishments, but you do need to know where the justice system is, who decides the punishment for particular crimes, how extradition will work, where the territorial boundaries are, and who gets brought in for what crimes.

It'd be one hell of a hassle.

A state monopoly police force, in general, will investigate crimes where the victims are unknown, white collar crime with no direct victims, and general extortion where the victims are too afraid to come up with. Making sure a private force does that will be harder due to very little direct incentive to make sure these crimes are found out.

Ok, you object to taxes on a moral level. I don't really care about that debate.

Roads are publicly owned. If they were privately owned, a company could earn a ton of money by simply creating toll booths, making sure you paid $30 a hour or so, just to use roads. Controlling transportation would be huge profit for any company that does that. But the cost of a building a road is much less than that. With publicly owned roads, we can artificially keep the cost down by using a NPO to organize and pay for the construction of roads.

If Government is more effective than a private organization, and by more effective, I mean, an extra $10-20k per person in personal wealth, would you agree that government deserves to exist, or would you still argue against government due to it's oppression and theft?

I agree government research can be pretty terrible in a lot of places. But those things do need funding, and if NPO funding isn't enough, then it is greatly to our benefit to have the government tax people to make sure that research goes through.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.