A quote by Nate tha' Great

[cartman]

Nate tha' Great made the following reply in this thread:

[ QUOTE ]
I think you need to continue to bet the turn most of the time here. Yes, it's annoying when these sort of players have position on you, but I think checking it to them allows them to take fullest advantage of that position. Once you check, you opponent can either:

1) Bet the turn and take a free showdown.
2) Bet the turn and bet the river as a bluff.
3) Bet the turn and bet the river for value.
4) Check the turn and take a free card.
5) Check the turn and see a showdown for one bet on the river.

That is just too many options for a player with some reasonable postflop skills.<font color="blue"> In fact, I think it is almost never correct to check both the turn and the river out of position after having the lead on the previous streets unless specifically you would be very uncomfortable if your opponent raised</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I understood perfectly until the blue part. I realize in this example that he is advocating to bet the turn and fold to a raise, but by saying it's almost never correct to check both is he implying that we should automatically bet the river if our opponent checks behind? This would make sense with a weak pair that we wanted to showdown cheaply, but does he mean to do it also with a busted draw or a big Ace high on a dry board that we checked intending to call a bet on the turn with?

Can anyone clarify what he meant by the blue part?

Thanks,
Cartman

[cartman]

I often see him advocate checking on the turn with a big Ace or some other weak but showdownable holding planning to fold if and only if his opponent bets both the turn and the river. In other words 1)check-call the turn but fold if the opponent follows through with a river bet or 2) check-call the river if opponent checks behind on the turn.

Is it possible he meant "...it is almost never correct to check AND CALL both the turn and the river..."?

Thanks,
Cartman

[Lmn55d]

hi, my impression was he was talking about check/calling two streets in a row (turn and river) after leading flop. If opponents checks behind on turn, you should not necessarily bet river. He's just saying that a plan that involves 2 check calls is bad. The thing is , however, that he implies that such a line is ok if you feel "uncomfortable" folding to a raise. I feel uncomfortable very often at 10/20 so I take the check/call check/call line fairly often and I think it is highly +EV in many spots. I think posters like sthief feel the same (correct me if I'm wrong sthief)

[cartman]

I think you are right that sthief stresses the importance of this line and I have been using it quite a bit against opponents who love to raise the turn when I have marginal but showdownable hands because a raise WOULD make me feel very uncomfortable.

But then in this thread (an excellent one by the way which includes commentary by many of the current guard and James282 amongst others), Nate comments in the original post that:

[ QUOTE ]
For one thing, if you play anything like I do, you probably won't be check-calling or check-folding the turn too often in a heads up pot after leading the flop, since a typical opponent will make some very loose calls on the cheap betting rounds, and it will usually be profitable either to bet for value or continue on some sort of semi-bluff. If you check the turn in this spot only a couple of times per session, the fact that you don't have the "hammer" of a check-raise at your disposal may never really come up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against aggressive opponents, I sure use it more than a couple of times a session. Probably closer to a couple dozen. What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Cartman

[sthief09]

the situation he described (raise UTG with AQo, CO cold caller, flop J86, bet and get called. turn 5, what now?) is easily one of the toughest decisions we face on a day to day basis. nate says bet, which I'm assuming means fold to a raise. well, being suspicious I tend to call down raises on boards where I feel there's a good chance I'm against a draw and often get shown nothing. I really really don't like bet-folding in general, especially on draw-heavy boards. he makes good points about why checking is bad, but getting pushed out of the pot is a big reason to not bet. I don't know which is better. I think if you check the turn a lot you need to checkraise the turn more often, which is something I don't do enough of.

[Lmn55d]

Here's one I just played where I think this is the most EV line. Villain is 51/29 and v. aggressive. I guess there's an argument for allowing him to bluff raise you, but I think the times he fires 2 more when he would have folded outweigh this.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, SB folds.

Flop: (5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB


Villain had 6T and MHIG.

[TStoneMBD]

the blue pretty much means that you should only not bet both the turn and the river if you dont know how to handle a raise. otherwise checking both streets doesnt make sense.

his advice is applicable to most situations but not all however.

[StellarWind]

You can lead a donkey to a free card but you can't make him drink it.

Consider the referenced thread, where Hero is heads-up out-of-position with AQ overcards on the turn after raising preflop and betting the flop. There is no reason to bet the turn if Villain is a player who makes a lot of loose flop calls and then bets behind whenever you check. You check, he autobets, you call. Next card please dealer. It's just like betting your hand except you never get raised.

The river may still be a problem but it isn't as if betting the turn would have helped with that.

In a thread some months back someone called this type of player a sponge. He soaks up TAG bets and then spits them back. Sponges are better robots than calling stations but they are still robots.

The real problem occurs when Villain actually plays well enough to mix up his play when you check the turn. Then you need to face a basic truth. No one plays well enough to make money from a good postflop player who has position. That's why you need to play tight in EP and maximize the button while you have it.

[aflaba]

[ QUOTE ]
You can lead a donkey to a free card but you can't make him drink it.

Consider the referenced thread, where Hero is heads-up out-of-position with AQ overcards on the turn after raising preflop and betting the flop. There is no reason to bet the turn if Villain is a player who makes a lot of loose flop calls and then bets behind whenever you check. You check, he autobets, you call. Next card please dealer. It's just like betting your hand except you never get raised.

The river may still be a problem but it isn't as if betting the turn would have helped with that.

In a thread some months back someone called this type of player a sponge. He soaks up TAG bets and then spits them back. Sponges are better robots than calling stations but they are still robots.

The real problem occurs when Villain actually plays well enough to mix up his play when you check the turn. Then you need to face a basic truth. No one plays well enough to make money from a good postflop player who has position. That's why you need to play tight in EP and maximize the button while you have it.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is a damn good post.