I think this is right but scuba disagrees

[elcheapo]

nice response (18% ROI after 3000 33's)

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should SB be tighter? What calling range are you assuming Scuba will put BB on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cos of the other short stack.

I am thinking Scuba would put BB on a 32-38%ish calling range if BB seems decent.

[/ QUOTE ]

and 39% happens to include K3o.....

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
nice response (18% ROI after 3000 33's)

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry man but how do you not know how to calculate pot odds after 3000 SNGs?

Also, it was more of a general comment, none of us here should ever berate anyone for what they consider a bad play.

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok time to delete my ORIGINAL POST

[/ QUOTE ]

sry, you posted follow-up while I was writing my post. folding as the other short stack would be silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I call BS!!!

Switch the stacks and run the numbers both ways. Any range that you put SB pushing, the call is going to be more +$EV with the larger stack.

I'm really not sure how the assumption that BB will call with such a large range developed. If I posted this hand and asked what range I should push into average 33 players I don't think anybody would be quoting equilibrium percentages. The fact that these players fold too many hands is the reason they are so exploitable.

[curtains]

zeropointmachine, the thing is that in general the SB will be pushing less from the SB when there is another shortstack outside of the blinds, whereas when the main opponent is in the BB, many will push 100% of the time.

I definitely believe its correct to call as the shortstack from the BB but correct to fold as the 2nd stack in the BB.

Yes its true that any range you put for the SB it will be SLIGHTLY more +EV to call K3o as the big stack, my whole point is that the SB will push signifigantly less when its the big stack in the BB, at least this is what my estimate would be.

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
zeropointmachine, the thing is that in general the SB will be pushing less from the SB when there is another shortstack outside of the blinds, whereas when the main opponent is in the BB, many will push 100% of the time.

I definitely believe its correct to call as the shortstack from the BB but correct to fold as the 2nd stack in the BB.

Yes its true that any range you put for the SB it will be SLIGHTLY more +EV to call K3o as the big stack, my whole point is that the SB will push signifigantly less when its the big stack in the BB, at least this is what my estimate would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, maybe I'm letting SNGPT presets screw with my thinking here. I'm can see stretching the calling range of a comfortable big stack and a desperate small stack, but I'm not as comfortable stretching for a middle stack that would become the small stack if he loses.

I just think there was a leap of logic in this hand that assumed both players were playing perfectly and assuming that their opponents were playing perfectly.

Obviosly, against an unknown I would not call here.

However, I would never put an average (or even "decent") player on a calling range that would keep me from pushing at least 70% from the SB here.

If I knew he knew that I knew that he knew it becomes a heads-up equilibrium problem. But I didn't grasp that from the original post.

[elcheapo]

you calculate odds differently than me. If we get the same result wtf is the problem.

SBGPT says that for this call to be +EV, SB needs to be pushing 65% of hands. The kicker is significant -- K8o is a +EV call when SB is pushing 45%.

Putting the other short stack in the BB, makes this a +EV call when SB is pushing 68%.

I'll leave it to others to speculate on how often SB will be pushing under each scenario.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
wtf is scuba doing berating bad players !?!!?

[/ QUOTE ]

Caught me.

#Game No : 3272946676
***** Hand History for Game 3272946676 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18664529 Level:6 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, December 28, 00:46:12 EDT 2005
Table Table 68111 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: elcheapo23 ( $1617 )
Seat 3: hueys46 ( $4540 )
Seat 5: wnlake5 ( $930 )
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck ( $913 )
Trny:18664529 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Ts Td ]
hueys46 folds.
>You have options at Table 67385 Table!.
wnlake5 folds.
Scuba_Chuck is all-In [813]
>You have options at Table 67841 Table!.
elcheapo23 calls [713].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9d, Jd, Th ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ]
Scuba_Chuck shows [ Ts, Td ] a full house, Tens full of jacks.
elcheapo23 shows [ Kh, 3d ] a pair of jacks.
Scuba_Chuck wins 1826 chips from the main pot with a full house, Tens full of jacks.
Game #3272948674 starts.

#Game No : 3272948674
***** Hand History for Game 3272948674 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18664529 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, December 28, 00:46:35 EDT 2005
Table Table 68111 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: elcheapo23 ( $704 )
Seat 3: hueys46 ( $4540 )
Seat 5: wnlake5 ( $930 )
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck ( $1826 )
Trny:18664529 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ 9s 7d ]
>You have options at Table 67841 Table!.
>You have options at Table 67385 Table!.
wnlake5 folds.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
elcheapo23 folds.
hueys46 shows [ 5h, 8c ] high card eight.
hueys46 wins 450 chips from the main pot with high card eight.
nice call
Game #3272949770 starts.

#Game No : 3272949770
***** Hand History for Game 3272949770 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18664529 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, December 28, 00:46:47 EDT 2005
Table Table 68111 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: elcheapo23 ( $554 )
Seat 3: hueys46 ( $4690 )
Seat 5: wnlake5 ( $930 )
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck ( $1826 )
Trny:18664529 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Jh 3h ]
elcheapo23: good timing
Scuba_Chuck folds.
BLACKJACK MASTERS!
*** TOP 21 PLAYERS! ***
Win a $5,800 cruise package!
Dec 23, 2005 to Jan 12, 2006
>You have options at Table 67385 Table!.
elcheapo23 folds.
>You have options at Table 67841 Table!.
hueys46 folds.
wnlake5 does not show cards.
wnlake5 wins 450 chips
Game #3272951852 starts.

#Game No : 3272951852
***** Hand History for Game 3272951852 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18664529 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, December 28, 00:47:10 EDT 2005
Table Table 68111 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: elcheapo23 ( $554 )
Seat 3: hueys46 ( $4540 )
Seat 5: wnlake5 ( $1080 )
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck ( $1826 )
Trny:18664529 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ 5c As ]
elcheapo23: your on 2+2 and you know that call is right
>You have options at Table 67385 Table!.
>You have options at Table 67841 Table!.
elcheapo23 folds.
>You have options at Table 67841 Table!.
hueys46 folds.
>You have options at Table 67385 Table!.
wnlake5 raises [450].
Scuba_Chuck folds.
wnlake5 does not show cards.
wnlake5 wins 900 chips
Game #3272953331 starts.

#Game No : 3272953331
***** Hand History for Game 3272953331 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18664529 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, December 28, 00:47:28 EDT 2005
Table Table 68111 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: elcheapo23 ( $554 )
Seat 3: hueys46 ( $4540 )
Seat 5: wnlake5 ( $1380 )
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck ( $1526 )
Trny:18664529 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Js Kc ]
Scuba_Chuck: right and then wrong
hueys46 raises [600].
wnlake5 folds.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
elcheapo23 is all-In [254]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, 2d, Jh ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qd ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
hueys46 shows [ 5d, 5s ] a pair of fives.
elcheapo23 shows [ 7s, 5c ] high card queen.
hueys46 wins 46 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of fives.
hueys46 wins 1258 chips from the main pot with a pair of fives.
elcheapo23 finished in fourth place.
elcheapo23 has left the table.
Game #3272954906 starts.

[GtrHtr]

thats harsh, lol. Good job on the OP naming 2+2. well done on that.